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Old 02-24-2019, 02:24 PM   #131
DreadDomain
 
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

This is excellent feedback Naloth. You have highlighted stuff I was already wondering about and more!

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I don't really have much to say about Superman. The write-up looks like a pretty good representation of the post-crisis or earlier (Reeves) movie version. Hitting a playable point level requires that he's better than every one else at everything.
Thanks, this is what I was going for.

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This version of WW is better. As a GM I'd probably require conditions for how/when she could be stripped of her powers, but that's more a campaign background type thing. Because of how Binding works in GURPS (permanent, chipped away), I would probably change it to an Affliction (Daze? Paralysis?). If you're going to keep it as Binding, no layering and resisting vs ST only probably should be added.
Ok, will look into it again and compare with Affliction.

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The Flash: he's not in the same league as WW or Superman when it comes to fighting. The Flash has a fraction of the effective HP (Superman is effectively HP150, WW is effectively HP180, while this Flash is 50) and his regeneration is too slow for combat (needs to be bumped to at least Instant).
The challenge with Flash is to make him generally competitive with Superman and Wonder Woman without the same offensive punch or defensive resistance. In a one on one combat, he needs to be able to chip away at them (hit them often for small damage) and avoid most if not all of their attacks (might be able to sustain one hit but probably not too). I will look at Instant Regeneration.

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He does have a pretty good Dodge (~14), but only a step 2 for dodging area attacks (the others have area attacks). It looks like he has Striking ST 20 (always) and can switch to Striking ST40 by sacrificing his ATR, which is a fraction of what Superman does multiple times per turn. The Flash isn't as damaging, but I would give him more attacks that incapacitate in various ways to differentiate him.
Good catch on step! Will have to look at it. Same for Striking ST, I was going for a "Lightning fast concentrated punches" effect for extra damage that was high enough to damage Supes and WW but not so high as to totally knock-out, say, Grodd. Same for his normal strike at 3d that he can do 7 times a second. More than enough to dispatch many thugs but not high enough to overpower super-vilains. The trick is to balance what abilities are Alternate Abilities and which are not. If only for the low step he has, I will have to rebalance that.

Another aspect is his "combat move". While he is much faster than Superman, I realised after the fact that he was slower than Supes in combat. Not good.

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I've always done his super zipping around as a variant of Warp, since he doesn't (can't) use momentum for combat. You avoided that by making his combat speed ATR and his non-combat speed "Travel Time," but I'm not sure it's worth the extra points.
Will look into it.

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The Flash normally carries a lot more weight with him while running than ST10 would allow.
Good point.

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Twister should probably be an Emanation (he spins like a top in place?) while Vacuum seems more like an Affliction that causes suffocation than a fatigue attack.
Will look into it.

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Speed Force Talent 8 seems excessive. 5 point talents that add to all your super powers really should be capped at 4, especially if you're letting it exceed the Move and Attack skill cap (suggested for speedsters).
Yeah, I have already reduced it but to be honest, I was even considering not using Talents at all. I am trying to streamline as much as I can (that's why I was resisting on Wildcard) and think that Skills + Wildcards + Talents might be too many moving parts.

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I'd use Move! instead of Speed Force! unless you're going to have a slew of speedsters with that wildcard. It covers most of the same skills, and basically whatever you need to get from point A to point B. Throwing and Wrestling seem a bit out of place among the other skills listed in Speed Force.
I just think that Move! is bland and Speed Force! adds more flavour. I see them as interchangeable. I agree for Wrestling (don't know why I added it). For Throwing, it is for Flash throwing stuff at super-speed and imbuing them (special effect, not imbuement) with the speed force.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:02 PM   #132
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

Regarding Step, I think that with Second Nature, his basic move and step aee based on his enhanced move.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:21 PM   #133
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Regarding Step, I think that with Second Nature, his basic move and step aee based on his enhanced move.
It looks like he only has one level of EM that isn't an AA which would only give him a step 4 at his top speed (20). It looks like you can AoA or AoD as a maneuver while running (without stopping) allowing him to keep that step, though using all-out is a recipe for getting smushed by a Wait action. It's far better for him to either move 10 or attack so he can dodge as necessary.
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:24 PM   #134
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

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It looks like he only has one level of EM that isn't an AA which would only give him a step 4 at his top speed (20). It looks like you can AoA or AoD as a maneuver while running (without stopping) allowing him to keep that step, though using all-out is a recipe for getting smushed by a Wait action. It's far better for him to either move 10 or attack so he can dodge as necessary.
Correct and it's not enough. I am rebalancing some powers and I am aiming at getting him a Step of 16 (8 at the worse). With his ATR (reduced by 1), it will give him a lot of coverage to attack, disarm, etc half a dozen target in a single second without using Move and Attack.

I double checked and I believe what you call Instant Regeneration is actually called Regeneration (Very Fast) in GURPS 4E. It costs 100 points and regenerates 1 HP a second. This is what I gave him.

Regarding damage, what would you believe is appropriate? In my working revised version he punches for 4d up to 6 times a second of 9d once a second. He can also speed bolt for 12d.

About carrying stuff, in my working revised version he can carry stuff up to ST 14 while runnng. Still too low.

You were right, Twister works better as an Emanation. Haven't looked at Affliction for Vacuum (by the way, both were inspired by a write-up in GURPS Powers).

Regarding Warp. I had looked into it previously and I don't believe this is the appropriate mechanic (if feels really forced for Super-Running) and I prefer Enhanced Move by far.
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:49 PM   #135
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

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Correct and it's not enough. I am rebalancing some powers and I am aiming at getting him a Step of 16 (8 at the worse). With his ATR (reduced by 1), it will give him a lot of coverage to attack, disarm, etc half a dozen target in a single second without using Move and Attack.
I stated step wrong above. It should be 1/10th move (round down). Don't know why I was treating it as 1/5th.... Too much time working with AAs I suppose ;)

My initial thought would be to increase his base Speed such that he could reliably "Power" defend using Permeation when he can't normally dodge. It gives him a way to counter large area attacks and even fits with what he's done in comics to avoid explosions and big things thrown at him.

Also, if his last maneuver is AoD he can Dodge with half move instead of just his step distance. He still would have to watch for "Wait" attacks, but it's a minor concession.

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I double checked and I believe what you call Instant Regeneration is actually called Regeneration (Very Fast) in GURPS 4E. It costs 100 points and regenerates 1 HP a second. This is what I gave him.
Yes, my 3e terminology leaks in from time to time. Very Fast is where I would put him.

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Regarding damage, what would you believe is appropriate? In my working revised version he punches for 4d up to 6 times a second of 9d once a second. He can also speed bolt for 12d.
Really, 2d or less is probably good enough as long as he can do enough of them. The mega punch is "meh". I'd instead have him trade off (as an AA) ATR for a more powerful lightning speed bolt that doesn't do damage as much as it is a massive electrical surge (stun). After all, stun would give him something Supes and WW don't have while 12d damage is inferior to either of their regular attacks.

For a more comic book version, you could also give him a Permeation or Insubstantial Affliction. It's a nasty attack to get vibrated out of your super suit...

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About carrying stuff, in my working revised version he can carry stuff up to ST 14 while runnng. Still too low.
My thought is that he should have enough ST (though it can just be lifting ST) to run at full speed carrying a 200lb man. He rescues/transports people quite often, sometimes carrying multiple people if necessary, but usually one at a time.

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Regarding Warp. I had looked into it previously and I don't believe this is the appropriate mechanic (if feels really forced for Super-Running) and I prefer Enhanced Move by far.
Sure, it's a flavor thing.
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Old 03-01-2019, 07:56 PM   #136
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

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This version of WW is better. As a GM I'd probably require conditions for how/when she could be stripped of her powers, but that's more a campaign background type thing. Because of how Binding works in GURPS (permanent, chipped away), I would probably change it to an Affliction (Daze? Paralysis?). If you're going to keep it as Binding, no layering and resisting vs ST only probably should be added.
Ok, I have tweaked Wonder Woman again. At this stage, I believe I have reached the same level of development as Superman (i.e. I could tweak forever but it's good enough). My main worry is that her defenses might be too high.

First, I relooked at Binding and Afflication for the Lasso and Binding really is the effect I want. It's a lot more straight forward as a mechanic. Nonetheless, I have added Unbreakable and One-Shot so you can using try to break free and there is no layeing effect.

Second, her Univeral Translator ability was bugging me because I thought it was very expensive for a secondary power. Since I had decided to embrace Wildcards, I have replaced the ability with two Language Wildcards (I wondered if just one was enough).

Third, I realised I had costed Amazon Warrior! wrongly so I fixed it and improved it by 1. At 21, I know feel she really is one of the best warrior of the world. It does push her defenses fairly high though.

Fourth, I replaced a bunch of her skills whith two new Wildcards, Museum Curator! and Ambassador! I decided to use the WC relatively freeform, inspired from the list in Power-Ups: Wildcard but flavoured and tweaked to suit.

Wonder Woman v4 [1500]
CHARACTERISTICS [140]
ST 60 DX 14 IQ 13 HT 15
HP 60 Per 13 Will 15 FP 15
Thr Dam 13d BL 1 ktons Speed 8 Move 8

ATTACKS-------------DODGE 12-----------SUPER BLOCK 11
Punch (21) 14d cr, Parry 14
Shortsword Swing (22) 14d+2(2) cut, Parry 15
Shortsword Thrust (22) 14d(2) imp, Parry 15
Shield Bash (21) 16d cr, Block 16 (including DB 2 from Shield)
Lasso Grab (21) Binding 40, Range 10 yards
Truthsayer (23 vs Will) Hearing-Based Mind Probe, Target must be binded
Bracelet Blast (20) 17d cr, Range 20, Cone (5 yrds), Select, 2xKB, Takes 2s

POWERS [880] • all powers (Amazon -5%)
Body of Gaia ST+48, DX+2, HT+4, Speed+0.75, Crushing Fist [547]
Toughness of Gaia Damage Resistance 5; Damage Reduction (3); High Pain Threshold; Regeneration (Regular), Very Fit [145]
Amazon Durability Doesn’t Breathe (Oxygen Storage/25); Pressure Support 2; Temperature Support 8; Unaging; Vacuum Support [42]
Speed of Hermes 40 (2,500) Flight +24, Space plus Enhanced Move (Flight) 6, Travel Time [146]

EQUIPMENT [178]
BRACELETS OF VICTORY • Gadget: Can Be Stolen (Forceful), Unique
Bracelets Blast Natural Weapon Crushing Damage, Increased Damage (+2 per die), Ranged, Cone (5 yrds), Selectivity, Double Knockback, Unbreakable, Requires both hands, Takes Extra Time (2s) [21]
Bracelets Deflection Cosmic Defense (Parry) [17]

SHIELD • Gadget: Can Be Stolen (Forceful)
Shield Bash +2d cr, Melee Attack (1), ST-Based [15]
Shield Block Enhanced Block +2 [7]

SHORTSWORD OF HEPHAESTUS
Forged by the Gods Sw Cut and Thr Imp damage, Armor Divisor (2) plus Signature Gear plus Weapon Bond [54]

MAGIC LASSO • Gadget: Can Be Stolen (Quick Contest, Disarm), Unique
Lasso Grab Binding 60, All-Out, One-Shot, Reduced Range (10 yrds), Unbreakable, Feature (Binding equals user’s ST) [39]
Truthsayer Mind Probe, Follow-Up, Reliable 10, Hearing-Based [26]

ADVANTAGES [192]
Amazon Princess Reputation +3, Almost everyone, All the time; [15]
Amazon Warrior Combat Reflexes, Trained by a Master; Weapon Master (Shortsword, Shield, Lasso) [75]
Ambassador of Themyscira Rank 5; Empathy; Indo-European Languages! Afro-Asiatic Languages! [76]
Beauty of Aphrodite Appearance (Very Beautiful) +2/+6; Charisma 2 [26]

RELATIONSHIPS [0]
Steve Trevor, Etta Candy and the whole gang Contact Groups, Skill 15-, Rarely 6-, Usually Reliable plus Dependent Rarely 6- [0]
Themyscira Contact Groups, Skill 15-, Rarely 6-, Usually Reliable [10]
Rogue Gallery Enemy, Rarely 6-, Medium size group [-10]

DISADVANTAGES [-32]
Ambassador of Themyscira Duty, Rarely 6- [-2]
Code Versus Killing Pacifism; Cannot Harm Innocents [-10]
Protective of Themyscira Sense of Duty [-10]
Secret Id, Diana Prince Harassment/relatives may be threatened [-10]

SKILLS [142]
Acrobatics (DX/H) 12 [1]; Acting (IQ/A) 12 [1]; Ambassador! (WC) 13 [12]; Amazon Warrior! (WC) 21 [108]; Animal Handling (IQ/A) 12 [1]; Boating (DX/A) 14 [1]; Computer Operations (IQ/E) 13 [1]; Detect Lies (IQ/H) 14 [1]; First Aid (IQ/E) 13 [1]; Museum Curator! (WC) 13 [12]; Navigation (IQ/A) 12 [1]; Riding (DX/A) 13 [1]; Stealth (DX/A) 13 [1]

Amazon Warrior! Includes Bow, Fast-Draw, Judo, Karate, Lasso, Shield, Shortsword, Tactics, Throwing, Wrestling and Acrobatics and Riding in combat
Ambassador! Includes Administration, Current Affairs, Diplomacy, Law, Leadership, Politics, Public Speaking, Savoir-Faire as well as Area Knowledge limited by area of exercise, Dancing for formal occasions and Psychology when it comes to understand motives and influence people
Museum Curator! Includes All specialties of Anthropology, Archaeology, Cartography, History, Paleontology and Research; the historical versions of Area Knowledge, Current Affairs, Geography, Heraldry, Philosophy, Sociology and Theology; and the “academic” and historical elements of the various artistic skills. Also removes Cultural Familiarity penalties for all historical eras, and halves them for parallel histories.


In this version she:
- Is one of the best warrior on the planet with a skill of 21, Combat Reflexes, Trained by a Master and Weapon Master
- Can take a lot of punishment with a small Damage Resistance but an impressive Damage Reduction
- has defenses that are very difficult to bypass, stopping any kind of direct hit with her shield or deflecting bullets and exotic attacks with her bracelets
- Is immortal and can survive in pretty much any hostile environment
- Can pierce the front armor of a tank with a punch or deliver devastating blows with her shortsword
- Can project her strength by taking the time to focus and smash her bracelets together. Note that she would need to drop shield and shortsword to do so
- Can immomilize almost any foes in her lasso and compel them to say the truth. To do so she must use an All-Out Maneuver and actively hold the person in place for the Binding to remain in effect. If she lets go for any reason, the restrained person can get out of the Lasso in a single maneuver (no contest). He will nonetheless be compelled to tell the truth as long as he touches the lasso.
- Fly at 140 km/h and "sprint" at 9000 km/h, flying from Paris to New-York in 45 minutes
- Is an accomplished Museum Curator in Paris as well as an Ambassador for Themiscyra, speaking a majority of the human languages
- Is one of the most well-known and well liked hero on the planet, combining reputation, charisma, beauty and a bunch of soft skills in her Ambassador! Skillset

Last edited by DreadDomain; 03-01-2019 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 03-01-2019, 08:16 PM   #137
naloth
 
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

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Ok, I have tweaked Wonder Woman again. At this stage, I believe I have reached the same level of development as Superman (i.e. I could tweak forever but it's good enough). My main worry is that her defenses might be too high.
They look pretty reasonable, especially considering that she won't be able to use her normal parry against quite a few types of attacks.

Quote:
First, I relooked at Binding and Afflication for the Lasso and Binding really is the effect I want. It's a lot more straight forward as a mechanic. Nonetheless, I have added Unbreakable and One-Shot so you can using try to break free and there is no layeing effect.
Did you check to see if there was a way to do it with Natural Weaponry? That would be nice because the lasso, as a gadget, would have the Binding based on the user's ST rather than an arbitrary Bind level. I mention this because 40 seems somewhat low for WW while it would be strange for Batman to be able to use it to pin down someone with x100 times his strength.

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Second, her Univeral Translator ability was bugging me because I thought it was very expensive for a secondary power. Since I had decided to embrace Wildcards, I have replaced the ability with two Language Wildcards (I wondered if just one was enough).
I've considered going different routes for this. Languages aren't really skills, though, so using Wildcards does seem odd. As advantages, Wild Powers per Supers 41, bought on 2 different languages (Language A! Language B!) seems rather inexpensive and strangely legal.


BTW, at the very end you seem to some Superman appropriate notes that don't apply to WW.
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:16 PM   #138
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My initial thought would be to increase his base Speed such that he could reliably "Power" defend using Permeation when he can't normally dodge. It gives him a way to counter large area attacks and even fits with what he's done in comics to avoid explosions and big things thrown at him.

Also, if his last maneuver is AoD he can Dodge with half move instead of just his step distance. He still would have to watch for "Wait" attacks, but it's a minor concession.
In my current write-up (with a Reduced Talent), his power dodge is 16. However, to do what you suggest (which is an excellent idea), I would need to change Permeation with Insubstantiability.

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Really, 2d or less is probably good enough as long as he can do enough of them. The mega punch is "meh". I'd instead have him trade off (as an AA) ATR for a more powerful lightning speed bolt that doesn't do damage as much as it is a massive electrical surge (stun). After all, stun would give him something Supes and WW don't have while 12d damage is inferior to either of their regular attacks.
Do you mean that it is "meh" compared with the damage WW or Superman do? If so, this is what I was looking for. Superman (17d+1 cr) and Wonder Woman (14d+2(2) cut) are supposed to have more raw punching power. Still at 9d, he lightning punches like a LAW and his Speed Bolt at 12d has both Stunning and Surge as side-effects. Are you suggest it should be more for both?

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My thought is that he should have enough ST (though it can just be lifting ST) to run at full speed carrying a 200lb man. He rescues/transports people quite often, sometimes carrying multiple people if necessary, but usually one at a time.
Yes, I am down playing his massive speed to give him a bit more fire power, ST and steps :)
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:21 PM   #139
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

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Did you check to see if there was a way to do it with Natural Weaponry? That would be nice because the lasso, as a gadget, would have the Binding based on the user's ST rather than an arbitrary Bind level. I mention this because 40 seems somewhat low for WW while it would be strange for Batman to be able to use it to pin down someone with x100 times his strength.
I didn't but I will. It's a good idea.

EDIT: Actually, I had! The problem is that Natural Weapon is based on damage type, cr, cut, etc...) and not on ST so it became an awkward build.

I can try to make room to increase it to 60 and add a -0% feature that this number is equalto the user's ST. Something that my build doesn't represent is that the Bind must be maintain (WW has to hold the lasso to keep someone restrained). I could add Requires Ready (-10%) or even All-Our (-25%).

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I've considered going different routes for this. Languages aren't really skills, though, so using Wildcards does seem odd. As advantages, Wild Powers per Supers 41, bought on 2 different languages (Language A! Language B!) seems rather inexpensive and strangely legal..
I actually used the rules for Wildcard Languages in Power-Ups 7 p.20

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BTW, at the very end you seem to some Superman appropriate notes that don't apply to WW.
Fixed!

Last edited by DreadDomain; 03-01-2019 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:00 PM   #140
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Default Re: GURPS Supers Alternatives

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I can try to make room to increase it to 60 and add a -0% feature that this number is equalto the user's ST. Something that my build doesn't represent is that the Bind must be maintain (WW has to hold the lasso to keep someone restrained). I could add Requires Ready (-10%) or even All-Our (-25%).
I added All-Out and increased Binding to 60. Write has been updated above.

Also fixed Punch Parry and Shield Block (rounding error)

Last edited by DreadDomain; 03-01-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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