Can you Dodge-and-Drop from a crouching/kneeling position?

[lordabdul]

EDIT: If you ended here after a forum search, you only need to know Kromm did confirm you can Dodge and Drop from kneeling (effective bonus +1 only since you're at -2 for kneeling).

I may be missing something obvious somewhere (I couldn't find anything about this on the FAQ or the forums), but the "Dodge-and-Drop" option (which gives you +3 to Dodge ranged attacks) doesn't specify anything about your character being necessarily standing to use it. So can you use it while crouching or kneeling?

If you can, the issue is of course that you can get into a silly back-and-forth with a gunman who can't seem to shoot you on the ground. On his turn you dodge his bullet by hitting the ground... then on your turn you try getting up, and then on his turn he fires again. But this time the foe fires at -2 (because you're crouching/kneeling) and you defend at, err, either "normal" (if crouching) or -2 (if kneeling... so I suppose you would always want to go to crouching from prone?). If the foe hits, you would drop again to roll Dodge at +3, and this action repeats itself every turn.

If you *can't*, the issue is of course that if you were crouching behind cover and someone flanks you, you can't dive to the side to get a Dodge bonus, which seems unfair (although a lot less silly than the previously described alternative).

[Skarg]

You are missing things.

1) Crouching is Standing, with the Crouching option. You cannot Change Position from lying down to Crouching in one turn - it takes one turn to get to Kneeling, Crawling, or Sitting, first.

2) No, you can't Dodge & Drop from Kneeling, either. (Actually, we allow it but only for a +1 to dodge, not +3.) And of course your defenses while Kneeling are at -2. Some GM's also use your effective Move for Dodge, which is at 1/3 while Kneeling.

3) You can Dodge & Drop from Crouching, because Crouching is just an optional way to be Standing.

[lordabdul]

Originally Posted by Skarg

1) Crouching is Standing, with the Crouching option. You cannot Change Position from lying down to Crouching in one turn - it takes one turn to get to Kneeling, Crawling, or Sitting, first.

Ah right, I thought I read somewhere you could go from lying to crouching, but I must have been dreaming since I luckily can't find it anymore.

Originally Posted by Skarg

2) No, you can't Dodge & Drop from Kneeling, either. (Actually, we allow it but only for a +1 to dodge, not +3.) And of course your defenses while Kneeling are at -2. Some GM's also use your effective Move for Dodge, which is at 1/3 while Kneeling.

Where does it say you can't Dodge and Drop from kneeling? If anything, yes, it makes sense to allow it for only +1 since that's (+3 -2). However I think the attacker is also at a disadvantage at that point since he has to shoot the kneeling target at -2. The alternate rule to use effective Move is very interesting though, thanks for that!

[Maz]

I have always felt a crouching and Kneeling where too similar in benefits but too different in penalties. also it was confusing for my players when they would be doing one or the other.


So I changed Crouching:
You have -2 to attacks and no defense penalty (same as normal). But people only have -1 to target to you, not -2.
You can't use a Crouch to pick something up form the ground, you need to effectively kneel down, it can be described as a "deep crouch", but mechanically speaking you have to enter the Kneel position.
You can't Brace a weapon against a low wall with a Crouch.

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't see any reason you couldn't dodge-and-drop from kneeling.

Diving for cover might be an issue. Then again, the defense penalty might cover it.

Originally Posted by lordabdul

If you can, the issue is of course that you can get into a silly back-and-forth with a gunman who can't seem to shoot you on the ground. On his turn you dodge his bullet by hitting the ground... then on your turn you try getting up, and then on his turn he fires again. But this time the foe fires at -2 (because you're crouching/kneeling) and you defend at, err, either "normal" (if crouching) or -2 (if kneeling... so I suppose you would always want to go to crouching from prone?). If the foe hits, you would drop again to roll Dodge at +3, and this action repeats itself every turn.

This isn't a back-and-forth, this is you being completely pinned down and the shooter getting endless chances to get lucky, either by rolling a crit or by you failing your dodge, and actually hit you.

Originally Posted by Maz

I have always felt a crouching and Kneeling where too similar in benefits but too different in penalties. also it was confusing for my players when they would be doing one or the other.

Crouching is a sometimes desirable tactical choice. Kneeling is basically a position of disadvantage. Its only real virtue is that it is easily the best posture for most purposes that you can reach in a single normal Change Posture maneuver from lying down.

[lordabdul]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

This isn't a back-and-forth, this is you being completely pinned down and the shooter getting endless chances to get lucky, either by rolling a crit or by you failing your dodge, and actually hit you.

It's not a "back and forth" in the sense that only on character attacks and the other one only defends, but it can go on for several seconds:

1. Shooter turn: shoots. Defender Dodge-and-drops, rolling Dodge+3.
2. Defender turn: uses Change Posture to raise to Kneeling.
3. Shooter turn: shoots again, but at -2 to hit the torso. Defender Dodge-and-drops again, rolling Dodge+1.
4. Defender turn: raises to Kneeling again.
5. Shooter turn: another -2 attack, another Dodge at +1.
6. etc.

At this point, it's a game of whoever fails his roll first, the difference being that they both roll with an additional -2 compared to the first turn. If the defender fails first, he gets hit and it's going to be very difficult for him. If the attacker fails first, the defender can then retaliate from a kneeling position (with no penalty if we're talking about a gun fight), and use his Step to go to a standing position -- you're back at the beginning, or maybe the roles are reversed if the first shooter chose to Dodge-and-drop.

Is there anything the shooter can do to make sure having a target dropping to the ground with no cover is a sure thing to hit him next turn? The only thing I can think of is that if you can use Rapid Fire, you'd better fire all the bullets you can on that second attack, to make sure at least one bullet hits. You can also All Out Attack but it's not necessarily more advantageous than in any other situation.

So basically it seems like Dodge and Dropping in front of a shooter is not as disadvantageous as it seems at first? I can't actually think of a good reason *not* to Dodge-and-drop in general? It seems the only real disadvantage comes from the nature of the bell curve, where the -2 on a typical Dodge+3 score (11) is more costly in terms of probabilities than a -2 on a typical Guns score (14).

[Skarg]

Ok, so I don't see an explicit rule against Kneeling Dodge & Drop either. Dodge & Drop on B.377 doesn't say anything explicit about posture, except that "hit the dirt" and "drop to the ground" we took as logically inconsistent with being kneeling. Also, you explicitly can't Retreat while Kneeling or Sitting.

We've either played that you couldn't Dodge & Drop while Kneeling, or that it only gave a +1 to Dodge, because mobility is clearly much worse while kneeling in real life. If you think Dodge & Drop while Kneeling should give a +3 just like diving from a standing position, I strongly suggest you try doing both. It's pretty clear to me that while I could make a fairly hard-to-hit flying dodge from standing, involving a lot of motion, if I'm kneeling, I can't really get out of where I am very quickly, and flinging myself down doesn't help much as opposed to just jerking (which may have me fall over, but either way, it's nothing like what I can do standing up). In fact, I think I could be about as evasive if I jumped up from kneeling as I could from falling further down.

Next, try flinging yourself down from standing, then kneel, then fling down from that, then get up... and have a friend stand next to you aiming at you... in my experience, it is really not going to work well - it will tend to take longer than two seconds to throw down and get back up, and/or you're just going to be a pathetically flailing thing that's not hard to shoot (at least, not from close range), at least after the first time you hit the ground. Now, for an athletic evader, there may be some ways to scamper around and be fairly hard to hit, but it seems to me it's not kneeling and flinging down from kneeling, per se.

If you don't allow Dodge & Drop from Kneeling, then average dodge from Kneeling is 8 -2 = 6. That seems about right, though his other option is to shoot at you from prone. IIRC there's no penalty for firing after having just hit the dirt... you might want to try that out and see if a house rule is in order. I know if I hit the dirt like I need to avoid getting shot, I'm not going to be ready to return fire with no penalty immediately!

The other thing is, if the Dodge & Drop is done without cover involved or in crawling range next turn after the drop, and the shooter is close enough, it seems to me what tends to happen is as the evader recovers from his drop, the shooter can wait and acquire the target, essentially doing Wait or Opportunity Fire, improving his aim and shooting if/when the evader seems like he may be about to shoot back or get ready to jump away again.

[Ulzgoroth]

There's no penalty to shoot from any posture.

Originally Posted by lordabdul

So basically it seems like Dodge and Dropping in front of a shooter is not as disadvantageous as it seems at first? I can't actually think of a good reason *not* to Dodge-and-drop in general? It seems the only real disadvantage comes from the nature of the bell curve, where the -2 on a typical Dodge+3 score (11) is more costly in terms of probabilities than a -2 on a typical Guns score (14).

...Overall I think the problem here is that you're seeing 'but I get to dodge at +1' as making the fact that you're being shot at turn after turn while not actually doing anything into a reasonably okay situation.

It's really not. Giving the enemy a bunch of free chances to kill you is not a winning approach. It's especially not because one-on-one gunfights are unusual, and in a much more likely group-vs-group engagement the guy flopping around in the open draws fire from multiple enemy shooters...and the Dodge and Drop only protects you against one.

If all you want in life is to dodge at a small bonus, instead of doing a Dodge and Drop and then repeatedly flopping in place, try doing an All-Out Defense to begin with. You get mobility and can Dodge at +2 against everyone without having to fall over.

[T.K.]

I'd allow "Dodge and Drop" from kneeling.

That's basically someone desperately trying to stay alive throwing his body around trying to dodge bullets. I've seen this scene many times in movies, series and whatnot and I believe people can relate to have seen this at least once.

On the situation of the 2 fighters:

Shooter miss and basically get to try to kill someone the next second.
Dodger miss and basically dies.

The dodger is loosing ground, not doing anything besides trying to stay alive and whenever he fails, he might die.

The shooter could very well be far away, safe, holding his position and a fail simply means he get's to try again next round.

It's a dire situation to the character on the ground.

[lordabdul]

Ok, thanks everyone for the comments! I think for my next games I'll allow Dodge-and-Drop from kneeling for a net +1, but will probably throw an extra 2FP cost if the character keeps going after the second attempt or something.