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Old 05-27-2010, 09:37 AM   #41
Jürgen Hubert
 
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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Originally Posted by lachimba View Post
SAIs can be elected to government in Europe right?


A writeup of a popularly elected SAI politician might be interesting.
As it happens, I've been thinking about election laws and nonhumans.

Currently, there are minimum age limits to be considered a full citizen and get the right to vote - but there have been canon references of nonhumans who have attained full citizenship before the customary age of 18 years, which makes sense for quicker-developing SAIs and bioroids. So maybe there are some sort of tests which would permit people to be considered legally adults before the age of 18 if they pass.

However, there are also laws which limit the age when you may be elected to a political office. So how should this be adjusted to reflect faster development of many people?

I'm not quite sure whether it plausibly would be changed, given that the majority of the German population is elderly. But this might make for an interesting "hot button" issue.
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:05 PM   #42
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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I'm not quite sure whether it plausibly would be changed, given that the majority of the German population is elderly. But this might make for an interesting "hot button" issue.
Perhaps older SAIs and Bioroids campaigning on the basis that enfranchisement will keep 'youth' from becoming a dangerous underclass.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:51 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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Perhaps older SAIs and Bioroids campaigning on the basis that enfranchisement will keep 'youth' from becoming a dangerous underclass.
Is there a way for humans to become mature enough to vote in a similarly short time?
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:43 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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Is there a way for humans to become mature enough to vote in a similarly short time?
I'd say so.

It probably makes no sense to grant full adult citizenship rights to SAIs and bioroids at a fixed age, as different SAIs and bioroids will develop at different speeds. Thus, I can see special tests getting developed which determine the ethical and cognitive maturity of the individual - if it is capable of understanding the rights and duties expected of full citizens. If these tests are passed, the citizen will be considered a full legal adult early. If not (or if it chooses not take these tests), it will be declared a legal adult at the "usual" age of maturity (such as the age of 18 in Germany).

But if SAIs and bioroids can take those tests, then there is no reason why "normal" humans shouldn't be able to take them either. After all, thanks to genetic upgrades and much better education, people do grow up faster in many ways...
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:16 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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But if SAIs and bioroids can take those tests, then there is no reason why "normal" humans shouldn't be able to take them either. After all, thanks to genetic upgrades and much better education, people do grow up faster in many ways...
It seems to me a fairly short step from this to saying that any being which cannot pass the tests should not be considered a citizen - whether that being is a half-crazed AI fragment or a natural-born human who happens to be a bit mentally lacking.

(I consider that a good thing, but I'm sure many people wouldn't.)
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Old 05-31-2010, 05:30 PM   #46
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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Is there a way for humans to become mature enough to vote in a similarly short time?
In Australia there have been some campaigns to extend voting to 16 year olds on a 'if you put in an enough effort to enrol you are eligible to vote' basis.

I doubt anything will come of it, but who knows in 100 years.
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Old 05-31-2010, 07:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert View Post
I'd say so.

It probably makes no sense to grant full adult citizenship rights to SAIs and bioroids at a fixed age, as different SAIs and bioroids will develop at different speeds. Thus, I can see special tests getting developed which determine the ethical and cognitive maturity of the individual - if it is capable of understanding the rights and duties expected of full citizens. If these tests are passed, the citizen will be considered a full legal adult early. If not (or if it chooses not take these tests), it will be declared a legal adult at the "usual" age of maturity (such as the age of 18 in Germany).

But if SAIs and bioroids can take those tests, then there is no reason why "normal" humans shouldn't be able to take them either. After all, thanks to genetic upgrades and much better education, people do grow up faster in many ways...
Question, though--in a world with ubiquitous and constant net access, how do you design a test that actually tests these things? What do you do with an entity whose strategy is simply to search for the majority response to the questions? Is this the type of entity that you want to give the vote to?

(Vinge's Fast Times at Fairmont High seems appropriate to bring up here)
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:25 PM   #48
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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It seems to me a fairly short step from this to saying that any being which cannot pass the tests should not be considered a citizen - whether that being is a half-crazed AI fragment or a natural-born human who happens to be a bit mentally lacking.

(I consider that a good thing, but I'm sure many people wouldn't.)
No, any being which cannot pass the test and hasn't reached the age of majority will not be considered an adult. But it will still be considered a citizen as long as it meets the other legal requirements, just like children.

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Question, though--in a world with ubiquitous and constant net access, how do you design a test that actually tests these things? What do you do with an entity whose strategy is simply to search for the majority response to the questions? Is this the type of entity that you want to give the vote to?
That's a problem with all tests in the setting (including college exams and the like), and presumably this issue has been solved. I'd say the entity in question has to switch off net access, and there are sensors which monitor any transmissions from it - or, in the case of digital intelligences, go to an isolated system.
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:23 PM   #49
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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That's a problem with all tests in the setting (including college exams and the like), and presumably this issue has been solved.
It's a problem which doesn't need to be solved in most cases, since it doesn't matter how a person gets to be competent, so long as they are. Net access is available in the workplace, and if it's adequate professionally there's no good reason not to accept it as adequate in exams.
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Old 06-02-2010, 03:06 AM   #50
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Default Re: Why Germany Matters

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It's a problem which doesn't need to be solved in most cases, since it doesn't matter how a person gets to be competent, so long as they are. Net access is available in the workplace, and if it's adequate professionally there's no good reason not to accept it as adequate in exams.
But how do you know the person isn't a sophisticated sock puppet of some kind?
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