Isnt Ally too overpowered?

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Worth repeating. Would you consider it it "overpowered" just to add another PC to the party?

The GM can just scale the difficulty of the challenges, right? And you know the character has the golem combat monster when you design those challenges. If you can design an encounter for five PCs, you can do it for four PCs plus an Ally. So really, they've paid 25 CP for the privilege of making all their combats harder and risking getting the squishies squished because they're not combat-monster-y. The all-PC party doesn't have to waste 25 CP on adding another 100 points of combat power. In that sense, Allies are actually less effective than they look because of that surcharge.

There is no rule or even expectation in GURPS that says all encounters are designed ahead of time on a fixed point budget relative to the PCs base characters (only) with no knowledge of the party composition, to be randomly attacked by any group built strictly according to the rules, without the GM's knowledge or revision. Even in D&D, the "Challenge Rating" didn't guarantee balanced combats (our group frequently saw it off by at least a factor of two in either direction, and had to fudge). And GURPS isn't even claiming to have that. Character points aren't about combat power balance, and are only mostly about story-influence balance. To paraphrase Kromm, they're about "all players had an equal opportunity to start off" balance -- and a lot of groups don't even care about that!

Adding another PC to the party would probably also lead to them splitting any reward they get. A minion wouldn't.

It is preferable that the GM doesn't have to scale the difficulty like that. If challanges are just scaled up like that, it removes a lot of the incentive to improve you character. It also doesn't make much sense from a verisimilitude perspective, tasks are generally made easier if you improve your skills or bring more people.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by GM.Casper

My player wants a golem minion. So, a 250 point ally for a 250 PC is 5cp, multiplied by x4 for constant Frequency of Appearance, is 20cp, for what is basically a whole extra party character, optimized for combat. 100 points gets 5 golems and the PC could conceivably defeat the entire rest of the party..

Am I missing something because this sounds way too overpowered?

You're not missing anything. It's by far the most overpowered advantage in the game. It needs to be handled with a high degree of GM oversight.

Obviously, many disagree with me on this point. There have been long (civil) arguments on the subject on this forum over the years. You could search for them for details on the various views. I haven't yet seen a compelling counter argument to Allies being overpowered.

I've seen some house-rule attempts to balance Allies. One applied a limitation to the ally's point total (something like -40%, IIRC, based on a rough combination of Fickle and Uncontrollable [which, incidentally are each worse than what you get with Ally]) and then multiplied the value by how often the ally appears (so if they appear on a 10 or less, multiply by 0.5). And I've seen someone just flat multiply the cost of Allies by something like 4 IIRC. In both cases, players still eagerly took the advantage.

A house rule that I have tried was to limit the entire party to at most one ally and all the players had to agree on the ally and who would get it. I figured, overpowered doesn't much matter as long as everyone is cool with it and as long as it isn't taken to ridiculous proportions. I didn't change the point total in this case and it worked well enough to use in more than one campaign.

YMMV

[Ashtagon]

If I were going to re-write Ally, I would make the cost for the power aspect of Ally equal to 1 CP per 20 CP of the Ally, or the amount on the table in the rulebook, whichever is greater (and the ally's CPV can be no more than 150% of the character's CPV in any case). That solves nearly all of the potential abuse problems.

[Dustin]

I had a very similar situation in a recent campaign that worked out well, largely thanks to the player's willingness to hear my concerns and make suggestions.

We agreed that the minion (a clockwork combat golem) would mainly be devoted to just defending the artificer PC, and thus would not normally rush to the front lines but would hang back to guard him. This moderated the overall offensive power of the party nicely, and handed me a tool to help speed up fights where the PCs already had the upper hand and I could use the golem to help mop up.

To ease my GM burden, we agreed that the player would suggest the golem's action (often just Wait), but I would always retain control if I thought the golem would take a different action. There were a handful of times the golem couldn't be present, due to social or legal restrictions. I did also once use magic to turn the golem against the party during an already difficult encounter, very nearly resulting in one PC death and almost a TPK, but they pulled it off in the end. The Ally ended up being a great addition to the game, both tactically, and as a roleplaying foil.

So my suggestion is to talk to the player about your concerns, and come to an agreement about how the Ally will be used. Make sure the player understands about the NPC being ultimately under your control, and what your understanding of its IQ and disads means to how it will act and respond, especially in fights. Basically make a deal with the player, and it will probably work out well, as long as you both share the same expectations.

[GM.Casper]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Allies are built by the GM (so not necessarily optimized for what you want, and you don't get to see its character sheet) and played by the GM with their own goals and personalities (so they don't necessarily do what you want them to either). Though there are official workarounds for that later issue like Minion or Puppet or using the trait for reprogrammable IQ 0 things which IMO *are* overpowered.

Reprogrammable IQ 0 Minion is the way he wants to go.

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Well, first, the constant level of frequency is reserved for NPCs "that are implanted, worn like clothing, or super*naturally attached". So that requires a supernatural link at the very least for your golem. GMs would be well in their rights to ask for an Unusual Background (and a paragraph or three of text) to explain this link.

Next, unless you are adding Minion to him (+50%), he's going to resent being used as your combat monster.

You'll probably want Summonable (+100%), unless you want him literally present everywhere and everywhen, including when you go to teh toilet, on a romantic date, trying to impress a local noble, trying to be stealthy, etc.

So, 5 cp basic cost, +100% Summonable, +0% Minion (Slave Mentality), 4x constant appearance; total 40 cp.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Most of the caveats you guys are suggesting don't apply here. The player wants a "golem minion" worth 250 character points and available all the time. Since it's not supernaturally attached, the best you can get is "almost all the time," 15 or less, which is pretty darned often.

Ally Familiar can be of constant appearance, as far I can see.

If you've got four of these, that's 60 points. But note: that's 60 points out of YOUR 250-point character, so ignoring Allies you're only a 190-point character.

“Percentage of PC’s starting points.” So shouldn’t matter even if all 250 get spent on a horde of allies.

Originally Posted by ericthered

No, if anything slave mentality should REQUIRE you to add minion. but that will just bring you to 23 points per Golem. Slave mentality gives the owner more control and the minion more points, and that benefit should be balanced with minion.

Not by RAW, but you have a point. Adding this as a houserule, it is a 52 cp for an equal Ally. Still to cheap, I’d say.

Suppose I’d add another +100% enhancement for ‘Tailor Designed’. That’s 70cp. Sounds more appropriate for a 200cp golem (the player starting totals area also 200).
A lesser 100 cp golem would be 2(base price)+2(summon)+2(Design)+1(Minion)=7*4(constant) =28 cp. And of course the risk of losing those points if the golem is destroyed in battle.

The PC will also need skills for repairing and maintaining the golem, and take a Concentrate maneuver every time he gives a new order.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Well, first, the constant level of frequency is reserved for NPCs "that are implanted, worn like clothing, or super*naturally attached". So that requires a supernatural link at the very least for your golem.

Not with DF.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Since it's not supernaturally attached, the best you can get is "almost all the time," 15 or less, which is pretty darned often.

Originally Posted by ericthered

No, if anything slave mentality should REQUIRE you to add minion.

"+0% if the Minion has IQ 0 or Slave Mentality..., as the benefits of total loyalty are offset by the need for close supervision..."

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Since it's not supernaturally attached, the best you can get is "almost all the time," 15 or less, which is pretty darned often.

Originally Posted by GM.Casper

Ally Familiar can be of constant appearance, as far I can see.

It can be if it's "implanted, worn like clothing, or supernaturally attached." I'm guessing a golem Ally is none of these things. It's not a familiar.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

If you've got four of these, that's 60 points. But note: that's 60 points out of YOUR 250-point character, so ignoring Allies you're only a 190-point character.

Originally Posted by GM.Casper

“Percentage of PC’s starting points.” So shouldn’t matter even if all 250 get spent on a horde of allies.

I think you're missing my point: every point you spend on Allies is a point you, personally, don't have as useful abilities. You could spend all 250 character points on Allies, but then you're pretty incompetent yourself. I'm pointing out the drawback of Allies: those are points you didn't spend on your own abilities.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I think you're missing my point: every point you spend on Allies is a point you, personally, don't have as useful abilities. You could spend all 250 character points on Allies, but then you're pretty incompetent yourself. I'm pointing out the drawback of Allies: those are points you didn't spend on your own abilities.

You being squishy because you don't have those points also brings up of the subtler drawbacks of Minion Allies from the standpoint of the rest of the party. With a henchman providing an extra combat monster role, well, he'd like to survive too, and will probably be happy enough to work for the survivors on the same terms, at least until they get back to civilization. With a minion, if you die, they lose the support of the minion too.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

It can be if it's "implanted, worn like clothing, or supernaturally attached." I'm guessing a golem Ally is none of these things. It's not a familiar.

Pyramid 3/01 covers this with zombie hordes. It says to use the x4 constantly, because even if not literally attached, the necromancer is unlikely to be without it.

If there are circumstances where you want to leave your minions behind, those are probably covered by disadvantages for the minion like Appearance or Social Stigma.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by malloyd

You being squishy because you don't have those points also brings up of the subtler drawbacks of Minion Allies from the standpoint of the rest of the party. With a henchman providing an extra combat monster role, well, he'd like to survive too, and will probably be happy enough to work for the survivors on the same terms, at least until they get back to civilization. With a minion, if you die, they lose the support of the minion too.

Do you really? Minions don't by default have a limitation on their Disadvantages which frees them from their orders if their master dies. In many cases you could just order your minion to keep assisting the party if you die.