[DF] Question about "You All Meet at an Inn" [Pyramid 98]

[genin]

[Spoilers ahead]

Hey folks,

So I took a look at "You All Meet at an Inn" from Pyramid 98.

I noticed one thing:

This is an adventure meant for beginning adventurers, as the time they meet for the first time.

The encounter that interests me is when the party makes it down the well and into the dungeon. There's a Flame Lord and torches that spawn Toxifiers every 10 seconds.

Presumably the party will drop a rope down the well and climb down, then get into the entrance where these monsters spring forth. It takes a minute to climb down the rope, so unless there's more than one character on the rope at a time (which seems unlikely, because the weight might break the rope, or a falling character take out the one below them), then the first character down will be on their own for 60 rounds. That's enough time for 7 Toxifiers to spawn, unless that character is smart enough to douse the torches that spawn them (and isn't otherwise too overwhelmed by monsters to do so).

The Flame Lord I can understand. Even though it has Unkillable, a good warrior can presumably take it out.

What concerns me are the Toxifiers. They require magic weapons to bypass their Unkillable. I'm assuming that most beginning characters won't have access to magic weapons. Meaning that they'll have to make due with doing 2 points of damage maximum (they're Diffuse). So they'd need to deal each Toxifier 110 damage to reduce them to -10HP. This would take 55 turns minimum for a single character, doing AoA(Double) each turn. Meanwhile, other Toxifiers are spawning every 10 seconds and each dealing 1d tox damage every turn.

By the time the second character makes it down the rope, the first will have been slaughtered and they're now facing around 7 Toxifiers. Unless a caster with air spells gets there in time, I can't imagine the party winning.

Since escape from the scenario is basically impossible (the Inn is surrounded by zombies), this seems to result in a TPK.

Now, I realize that, if I were to run the adventure, I could substitute a different monster or remove the Toxifiers' Unkillable (saying that they were more vulnerable than usual for some reason). But, as written, the adventure seems neigh impossible for beginning characters.

What am I missing???

[ZmbeHntr]

It isn't necessarily meant for beginning adventurers, as the number of zombies scales up with how many points each character is. However, there are plenty of ways to win that scenario. I have a few questions for you to think through though before I just start listing win scenarios.

First, what makes you think that only one person can fit in the well at a time? The map clearly indicates it spans multiple hexes, so several adventurers could be descending at the same time.

Second, what is stopping the adventurer from waiting for the next person down? The Flame Lord doesn't spawn until they go in the room. If the first character down is impulsive, that could be a bad thing but killing off a character is part of a bunch of games.

Here are a few ways I can see easily winning this battle:

1. The party has a Cleric/Holy Warrior with a blessed item. Toxifiers can't get close.
2. The party has someone that can deal area-effect, cone, or explosion damage. Diffuse what?
3. Party has a mage with Control Elemental. Let the Flame Lord fight the Toxifiers for you.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by ZmbeHntr

It isn't necessarily meant for beginning adventurers,

Yeah, it is.
The entire point of the whole adventure is to give a reason to the party becoming a cohesive whole. The entire intro text explains that, as well as the name of the adventure.

[sir_pudding]

Not having True Faith and Exorcism can be lethal in DF.

[ZmbeHntr]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Yeah, it is.
The entire point of the whole adventure is to give a reason to the party becoming a cohesive whole. The entire intro text explains that, as well as the name of the adventure.

That doesn't mean the individual adventurers are beginning level at [250] points. Go read the text again. Sheesh. Why so confrontational? The blue box labeled with a big N mentions experienced groups.

[genin]

Okay, interesting point about the possibility of multiple characters heading down the well at once (assuming they have enough rope...). A few considerations, though: while the map of the dungeon level does seem to indicate that there's enough room for multiple characters (there are ~3 partial hexes -- I suppose it depends on how merciful the GM is feeling), however on the map of the ground level the well is even smaller (only one hex in size). Regardless, that's a reasonable point, as Basic Set states that up to 4 SM=0 characters can fit into a single hex if they're friendly. On the other hand, that's for standing and, having done a little climbing in real life, I suspect that climbing should be a "full hex activity."

Regarding your other point, I'm not sure that characters can rally at the bottom of the well and wait for the party to congregate. The entrance to the dungeon is not at the bottom of the well, so characters have to either literally "hang out" at the end of their rope, swing into the dungeon, or splash down into the water and then hope they can get back up to the dungeon once the party is ready. No, I think it's most practical for the party to enter the dungeon as they arrive at the entrance.

Okay, so most parties will have a cleric with a holy symbol, so that's a fair point. Even so, this doesn't destroy the Toxifiers, right? They're just going to follow the party around and harass any character that gets more than 5 yards away from the cleric. Also, until they get the door open, the Toxifier(s) can barely be more than 5 yards from the centre of the room, and their attack is passive so it will still emanate 2 yards around them. If the adventurers want to douse the torches to keep more Toxifiers from showing up, they'll either need to expose themselves to the attack, or carefully stay within 5 yards of the cleric while the cleric moves methodically from one torch to the next (meanwhile several more Toxifiers are likely to spawn, which can then harass the party.

Anyone with air magic can do double damage to the Toxifiers. Area effect spells are also effective. But they're still unkillable without magic weapons, meaning beating them down to -10HP, taking 1d toxic damage each turn (while dealing with the Flame Lord, no less), directly after a choke point in the form of the well. Even a cleric Banishing or Exorcising them would run into trouble against a Will of 16 (and Exorcism would take a long time!)

This doesn't seem like an easy scenario to me!

In any event, so it seems like the best bet to take on the Toxifier(s) is to send down a caster first (either cleric or elementalist or demonologist). Since most parties are going to send a fighter and/or thief down a dark hole and keep their squishy casters in the back until a beachhead has been established, I'm thinking that the non-casters are going to get thoroughly toxified before the casters get there.

Yes, the adventure is designed to scale with overall party power. And some GM's may start at point values other than 250 (I like 300, personally). However, this adventure is explicitly written to be a party's first adventure together. Quite possibly for players who are new to the system and/or new to role playing. Meaning that, at the very least, in my opinion, it should be relatively straightforward to win, and shouldn't rely on super clever tactics or even tactics contrary to best practice like sending your casters first down a dark hole.

The other scenarios and monsters all make sense to me. They're challenging but winnable. (The phase serpents can also be quite lethal, I expect, particularly if the party doesn't figure out how to drain the water, but it's winnable). But having a monster that all but requires a magic weapon to defeat and having a potentially infinite number of them spawn every 10 seconds... Especially when there's no running away from the adventure due to the infinite zombies outside... That hardly seems fitting for a first adventure.

I mean, imagine the first person down is a warrior. They're non-too-bright. Maybe they take out the Flame Lord and meanwhile a second Toxifier spawns. Now they try to hack the things apart while waiting the 50 seconds for their backup to arrive. They don't have Hidden Lore (Demons), so they likely have no idea how to handle this monster. It might even take them a while to realize that their blows are having little effect. And, likely having an IQ of 10 or less, they may not put together the fact that they need to douse the torches to stop the spawning (maybe I just need to kill one Toxifier per torch then they're done... it would take seven Toxifiers to disprove this theory). Anyway, imagine that a few too many Toxifiers end up spawning and the warrior decides to retreat. Now the party is in a tough spot!!! They can't run away through the infinite zombies, and there's now a crowd of angry Toxofiers milling about in the dungeon entrance (an unmerciful GM will have them keep spawning, even when no adventurers are in sight).

I'm thinking that I'd either make these Toxifiers easier (remove unkillable), substitute an easier monster, or remove them entirely.

I wonder how the play-testers handled it???

Anyone else have other ideas on how to handle this scenario?

[Bruno]

We did the adventure and while some of our party roped down, some climbed down, and the barbarian just kinda fell down. We didn't run into a fight with the flame lord, we managed to make a bit of a diplomatic arrangement, although I think we made a bigger problem for ourselves later.
So we had to fight the toxifiers.

[ZmbeHntr]

Originally Posted by genin

Okay, interesting point about the possibility of multiple characters heading down the well at once (assuming they have enough rope...). A few considerations, though: while the map of the dungeon level does seem to indicate that there's enough room for multiple characters (there are ~3 partial hexes -- I suppose it depends on how merciful the GM is feeling), however on the map of the ground level the well is even smaller (only one hex in size). Regardless, that's a reasonable point, as Basic Set states that up to 4 SM=0 characters can fit into a single hex if they're friendly. On the other hand, that's for standing and, having done a little climbing in real life, I suspect that climbing should be a "full hex activity."

GURPS doesn't always mesh with real life perfectly. Besides, the point of the game is to have fun and bogging down the game with tons of little details other than some basic Climbing rolls seems counter Dungeon Fantasy.

Regarding your other point, I'm not sure that characters can rally at the bottom of the well and wait for the party to congregate. The entrance to the dungeon is not at the bottom of the well, so characters have to either literally "hang out" at the end of their rope, swing into the dungeon, or splash down into the water and then hope they can get back up to the dungeon once the party is ready. No, I think it's most practical for the party to enter the dungeon as they arrive at the entrance.

Depends on the GM. Some may say touching the ledge at the bottom counts as entering the room, but I would think you would actually need to go almost the full way to the brazier to have it count. Just looking inside shouldn't summon the Flame Lord.

Okay, so most parties will have a cleric with a holy symbol, so that's a fair point. Even so, this doesn't destroy the Toxifiers, right? They're just going to follow the party around and harass any character that gets more than 5 yards away from the cleric. Also, until they get the door open, the Toxifier(s) can barely be more than 5 yards from the centre of the room, and their attack is passive so it will still emanate 2 yards around them. If the adventurers want to douse the torches to keep more Toxifiers from showing up, they'll either need to expose themselves to the attack, or carefully stay within 5 yards of the cleric while the cleric moves methodically from one torch to the next (meanwhile several more Toxifiers are likely to spawn, which can then harass the party.

Dread means they have to move as far away as possible if they can't actually reach their 5 yards. I think being 2 yards away from them will be easily managed in that room. Dousing the torches is not going to take all that long. Smashing them off the wall and throwing them in the well would probably be a two-turn endeavor.

Anyone with air magic can do double damage to the Toxifiers. Area effect spells are also effective. But they're still unkillable without magic weapons, meaning beating them down to -10HP, taking 1d toxic damage each turn (while dealing with the Flame Lord, no less), directly after a choke point in the form of the well. Even a cleric Banishing or Exorcising them would run into trouble against a Will of 16 (and Exorcism would take a long time!)

Magic weapons like a wizard staff? That is fairly cheap. They could also just use the magic weapon found later in the dungeon. Reach 2 weapons should be able to hit them without exposing the attacker much, if at all.

This doesn't seem like an easy scenario to me!

Easy isn't fun! DF characters are not meant to be Level 1 beginners. They are meant to be quite competent. If the players are brand new to role-playing, then the GM might have to be nice and give some hints along the way.

In any event, so it seems like the best bet to take on the Toxifier(s) is to send down a caster first (either cleric or elementalist or demonologist). Since most parties are going to send a fighter and/or thief down a dark hole and keep their squishy casters in the back until a beachhead has been established, I'm thinking that the non-casters are going to get thoroughly toxified before the casters get there.

I think most GM's are going to assume everyone can go in together. I think a Mystic Knight/Archer would also make the situation really easy.

The other scenarios and monsters all make sense to me. They're challenging but winnable. (The phase serpents can also be quite lethal, I expect, particularly if the party doesn't figure out how to drain the water, but it's winnable). But having a monster that all but requires a magic weapon to defeat and having a potentially infinite number of them spawn every 10 seconds... Especially when there's no running away from the adventure due to the infinite zombies outside... That hardly seems fitting for a first adventure.

So change it if you think it is too hard. I think there are plenty of ways to deal with the toxifiers as is, especially if you have a standard party dynamic like knight-thief-wizard-cleric.

I mean, imagine the first person down is a warrior. They're non-too-bright. Maybe they take out the Flame Lord and meanwhile a second Toxifier spawns. Now they try to hack the things apart while waiting the 50 seconds for their backup to arrive. They don't have Hidden Lore (Demons), so they likely have no idea how to handle this monster. It might even take them a while to realize that their blows are having little effect. And, likely having an IQ of 10 or less, they may not put together the fact that they need to douse the torches to stop the spawning (maybe I just need to kill one Toxifier per torch then they're done... it would take seven Toxifiers to disprove this theory). Anyway, imagine that a few too many Toxifiers end up spawning and the warrior decides to retreat. Now the party is in a tough spot!!! They can't run away through the infinite zombies, and there's now a crowd of angry Toxofiers milling about in the dungeon entrance (an unmerciful GM will have them keep spawning, even when no adventurers are in sight).

So kill off the one person who jumps in. Don't play with a GM that would refuse to reset it because one person went off on their own. This seems more like you are trying to deal with every possible negative situation a GM could come up with, but the goal is for the GM to make the situation fun even if it is challenging.

I'm thinking that I'd either make these Toxifiers easier (remove unkillable), substitute an easier monster, or remove them entirely.

There is nothing stopping you from changing it how you see fit. However, I think that if you were running this as the GM then you would be surprised at how creative players can get. Now, that assumes this isn't the players' first RPG rodeo. If it is, then there are definitely easier games out there to get their teeth wet.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ZmbeHntr

Magic weapons like a wizard staff?

A wizard's Staff isn't a magic weapon.

Easy isn't fun!

Remember in DF, Losing Is !!FUN!!

[Tom H.]

genin,

I don't have the Pyramid in question, but I enjoyed reading your critique.

I can't comment on the encounter, but it is important to me that adventures and scenarios are plausible and have been thought through. So I like these kinds of discussions.