Point Cost vs. Money Cost for Cybernetic Advantages

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by hal

Paying points to keep the treasure haul after risking the character's life, limb, and/or liberty snacks of double charging the player. After all, the player doesn't gain bonus character points if his arm is ripped off or permanently crippled as a result of game play, so why charge points for wealth after game play?

You don't have to pay points to keep a treasure haul. If you get treasure, you can spend it any way you want. You only need to spend points if you want to turn that treasure into a new economic situation for your character (i.e. Improve his Wealth).

The overall question being dealt with here is whether you have to earn improvements to your character by adventuring, or whether improvement can be a natural consequence of what you do. I submit that the former is an artifact of level-based games, where "level" reflects an achievement of the player. There is no such measurement in GURPS. If you suddenly do something that makes you jump 20 character points, so what?

[AlexanderHowl]

It matters if you did not spend points in the first place. Let us take two characters, one with IQ 12 [40], Filthy Rich [50], and Independent Income 5 [5] and one with IQ 14 [80], Comfortable [10], and Independent Income 5 [5]. At TL9, the former character starts with $400,000 of disposable income and earns $100,000 per month while the later character starts with $8,000 of disposable income and earns $2,000 per month.

During the first session, the former character can spend $200,000 to purchase biomods and cybernetics that make her superior to the latter character. Within a year of gametime, the former character is rather superhuman while the latter character is just normal, despite starting at the same point level. The reason why we charge points after character creation for improvements (rather than just adjusting character point totals) is to discourage everyone from just playing characters with Filthy Rich or better.

[munin]

I'll just point out that Characters already covers some options under Body Modification (pp. B294-296) and says all options are "fair" if the GM wants them to be: costing points, costing money, costing both, or just free because that's what happened.

In general, cybernetic surgery costs $1,000 per point of advantages (p. B295), tripled for delicate surgeries on brain, eyes, vitals. Ultra-Tech lists a cybernetic Polyskin Face as Elastic Skin (Face only, -25%; Temporary Disadvantage, Electrical, -20%) [11], $15,000 (p. UT214). (extra cost I guess is for work around the eyes)

Personally, requiring players to have the requisite points before getting a cybernetic surgery seems unbelievable. "Sorry, sir, you can't get this surgery because you don't have enough adventuring experience." So I've required players to buy upgrades with cash before, and just consider it my responsibility to manage how much money they're getting over time. There's always something else useful to buy with cash so it's a fair trade.

But if they want to buy the advantage with character points before the campaign starts, that's fine with me.

[hal]

Originally Posted by munin

Personally, requiring players to have the requisite points before getting a cybernetic surgery seems unbelievable. "Sorry, sir, you can't get this surgery because you don't have enough adventuring experience." So I've required players to buy upgrades with cash before, and just consider it my responsibility to manage how much money they're getting over time. There's always something else useful to buy with cash so it's a fair trade.

But if they want to buy the advantage with character points before the campaign starts, that's fine with me.

Of course, a GM could go the route of simply stating "You want to get the operation, feel free. Until you can pony up the points, we'll give you a temporary disadvantage."

If an advantage is worth, say, 25 points when purchased with cybernetics - having an enemy (Watcher) with a lot of points in value, might find himself being watched to insure that he's legit, might be wire tapped to insure that he's not committing crimes, etc ;)

Much of GURPS when used as a tool box, means that there will be some GM's who play with a given "Style" that is unique to them.

I threw out the Wealth rules as written from GURPS a long long time ago in my games. When I run a medieval fantasy style game, I use HARN MANOR and HARN WORLD's prices and cost of living etc. When I run a cyberpunk campaign, I tend to use CBYPERUNK 2020 as a foundation for much of the stuff, and then use my own home brew of "cost of living" based on "monthly cost of living is = 85% the average income for that wealth level. The amount of discretionary spending allowed from wealth rules as written just makes me hit the "I believe" button for the suspension of belief - a wee bit too hard. ;)

So, can GM's assess an off-setting disadvantage for those advantages purchased with money but without character points? Sure. Would I do it? Nope. Will I tell any other GM they're doing it wrong if they choose to do it that way? Likely not. Would I play in someone's campaign who runs it that way? Probably not.

A lot of this comes under the heading of GM philosophy and/or "Style". The fact that GURPS doesn't really have script immunity by way of die rolls, means that even if I build an NPC whose point total is higher than the player character - means that the player character can wipe the floor with the NPC, or that the NPC can defeat the player character. I once had an encounter in which a person had been street modded to have slasher's included, and obscene levels of strength added (Muscle grafts) such that when he hit, he hit HARD. I also made it such that the NPC was a bit dim witted, and was always going for face hits with a telegraphed attack. I figured the player with his character could easily beat him in a street "fight club" scene. Alas, the player had his character nailed HARD, losing an eye, and having to undergo facial reconstruction after being flat-lined on the surgical table at the trauma OR in the nearby hospital. Had GURPS not come up with rules for stabilizing a character who suffered a mortal wound, and then having the doctors try to save his character's life... Well, that would have been the end of it right there. As it is? That player HATES getting cybernetic enhancements simply because he's wary of the GM's ability to use Electromagnetic Pulse grenades and electrocution to deprive him of his "advantages". Sheesh! I've not even used them yet!

"if you're not paranoid, I'm not doing my job". Remember that mantra for cyberpunk style campaigns. ;)

[weby]

It all comes down to how you envision that cybernetics are available.

In my scifi setting active cybernetics can be bought with either just points or as gadgets(1 point cost) at start. The one bought with points do not cost money, bt gadget ones do. They behave differently depending on that choice. Gadgets are used as normal such things instead of innate abilities.

A example I tend to give when asked how they differ is implanted radar. One bought with points works like the advatantage, that is you make normal sense rolls with it and such. The gadget version works like an external radar but one that is always with you, so using it is likely something like: turn it on, use electronics operation(sensors) to scan something, turn it off.

Passive things are always bought with points, but it should be noted that I use a TL based DR cost modifier for abilities to balance them against normal armor: https://water.roto.nu/seikkailu/doku...:advantages#dr

As for in play: You always have to acquire the gear(buy, steal, get as reward or whatever), get it implanted (pay the hospital/doctor normally) and the pay the full cost or the implanted gadget cost as normal.

Characters who have the implanted gadget option can also spend points in game to buy it to advantage as they get used to the implant.

[ericthered]

I only charge points for cybernetics that can't be replicated with other equipment. Most of the time that means neural jacks count and occasionally other bizarre senses. Everything else is gear. And I try to make it clear that if you can have a cybernetic hand, and I have a power sleeve that makes me your equal. You can have hyper-spectral eye implants, but I can wear a pair of goggles that do the same thing. Anything you can do, I can do with gear. There are a few exceptions, and those cost points.

This isn't appropriate in some genre's, notably supers, but in most science fiction it works just fine.