[Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Horizontal and Semi-Upright

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Elephants are not at all limited in how fast they can move while using their trunks. Their trunks are not legs. They are not categorically unable to use objects held in their trunks.

Nowhere does it say that the hand has to be on a leg. The inability to use an item while running is the only serious mismatch, out of an otherwise matching description.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Foot Manipulators on a chimp is double-dipping. They're already Semi-Upright.

By that logic, No Fine Manipulators for a dog is double-dipping because it already has Horizontal. Yet we recognise that having a drawback in addition to horizontal posture is worth an additional disadvantage. . . Or maybe we shouldn't try pigeonholing Semi-Upright and Horizontal into the same hole if they're apples to oranges, so we shouldn't bring the chimp into this comparison either.

Ideally, you'd want to compare two animals, one of which has Horizontal and the other has all the same traits except Horizontal, as other comparisons bring tangential baggage which spoils the 'experiment'.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

No, Horizontal does not specify the manual dexterity. It only specifies that you can't use your manipulators at all while walking at full Move, and that you can never, under any circumstances at all, use an object held in your hand. In Uplift (the source of the traits) it is completely 100% separated from the nature of the manipulators.


Takes up 3 hexes is not worth -10 points. It is a feature.
Weak Kick is not worth -10 points when Cannot Kick is only -5.



Weak Kick [-4]
Takes up 3 hexes [0]
Quadruped hit locations [0]
Full, unrestricted use of arm [0]



An animal with Horizontal and One Arm would have two hind legs, one front leg, and no trunk. It would be categorically unable to use that front leg to do anything except clumsily carry something while shuffling slowly at half Move. That does not come close to describing an elephant.

I'm not going to believe that elephants are 100% unable to use their trunk while walking or running without some scientific proof.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

No, Horizontal does not specify the manual dexterity. It only specifies that you can't use your manipulators at all while walking at full Move, and that you can never, under any circumstances at all, use an object held in your hand. In Uplift (the source of the traits) it is completely 100% separated from the nature of the manipulators.


Takes up 3 hexes is not worth -10 points. It is a feature.
Weak Kick is not worth -10 points when Cannot Kick is only -5.



Weak Kick [-4]
Takes up 3 hexes [0]
Quadruped hit locations [0]
Full, unrestricted use of arm [0]

Why are you overlooking the horizontal posture and rephrasing it as only being about taking up more hexes? The way it interacts with combat at different levels is worth 10+ points all by itself. An SM+0 elephant has its head at a level of its horizontal torso. An SM+0 centaur will have its head about a couple feet higher.

[whswhs]

Most of the restrictions that are part of Horizontal go away, I think, if you give the animal Extra Arms (1) to accompanying No Arms and Extra Legs (Four Legs). What you retain is mainly the restrictions on kicking.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Why are you overlooking the horizontal posture and rephrasing it as only being about taking up more hexes? The way it interacts with combat at different levels is worth 10+ points all by itself. An SM+0 elephant has its head at a level of its horizontal torso. An SM+0 centaur will have its head about a couple feet higher.

Because the "horizontal posture" has no actual game mechanical effect. It does absolutely nothing at all except make the animal take up 3 hexes instead of 1. The location of its head relative to its shoulders has no mechanical impact except the hit location table you use on it, which is also nothing but a feature. The length of its neck matters, but that doesn't differ proportionately from a human's or centaur's neck so it is also a feature. In fact an elephant is taller than a centaur, due to its SM.


This book War Elephants (ETA: starting on p. 213) describes elephants charging while wielding maces and swords and scythes in their trunks, from multiple historical accounts from multiple battles. There aren't any measurements of the elephants' speed while wielding weapons, but they are described with words like "rushed" and "charge" and there's no indication that they were forced to crawl slowly and awkwardly while wielding weapons. If merely having a weapon in its trunk slowed an elephant to half Move, war elephants wouldn't be so often armed with weapons. If an elephant was categorically unable to use a held object while moving at all, nobody would ever have given them weapons. But there are multiple historical accounts as well as contemporary artwork of elephants wielding weapons, not merely holding them, while running.

It is very clear that elephants are not impeded in any way in their movement speed while wielding weapons in their trunks. They can use their trunks with exactly the same dexterity as a centaur, while running. They are not forced to rear up on their hind legs to use their trunks, any more than a centaur.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

If a space alien was shaped 100% identically to a centaur, but its posture was to hold its human torso parallel to its horse torso instead of perpendicular, would it suddenly be Horizontal? Would it suddenly lose all capacity to use its hands to wield weapons or use items? Would it be unable to even hold anything in its hands while running at full Move? Just because its head is at a different location, its hands suddenly become less than half as useful?


I'll also point out, regarding hit locations, that the Quadruped hit location table can't even be used for elephants as written because it has no trunk hit location. They actually need their own elephant-specific hit location table. This is both a feature [0] and completely unrelated to the Horizontal disadvantage.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Because the "horizontal posture" has no actual game mechanical effect. It does absolutely nothing at all except make the animal take up 3 hexes instead of 1. The location of its head relative to its shoulders has no mechanical impact except the hit location table you use on it, which is also nothing but a feature. The length of its neck matters, but that doesn't differ proportionately from a human's or centaur's neck so it is also a feature.

Sure it does.

Originally Posted by B402, Combat at Different Levels

Up to three feet of vertical difference:
As above, but the lower fighter is at -1
to any active defense, while the upper
fighter is at +1 to his active defenses.

For an SM+0 creature, standing on four limbs of a size normal for SM+0 creatures, gives 2-3 feet of height difference compared to a vertical creature. With higher SMs the difference only becomes more prominent. That's a constant +1/-1 bonus/penalty to Active Defences in mêlée combats between same-SM fighters, so long as only one of them is Horizontal.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

In fact an elephant is taller than a centaur, due to its SM.

I specifically said to compare an SM+0 elephant to an SM+0 centaur (or 1 to a 1 or the like), so as to ensure it's apples to apples.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

If that effect applies to elephants, which it appears to do, then it needs to be separated from the disadvantage that primarily exists to make its trunk near-useless. That calls for a separate disadvantage, not for arbitrarily crippling its trunk.

Horizontal [-10], breakdown
Hit locations [0]
Takes up X hexes [0]
Weak Kick [-4]
Foot Manipulators [-3]
Also can't hold anything while at full Move [-1 or -2]
-1 active defense against taller foes [-1 or -2]

You can't simply add Extra Arms to a Horizontal animal, because by RAW it cannot fully use any of its hands like a centaur can, no matter how many hands it has. A Horizontal alien with 12 hands still has to slow to half Move to hold anything at all in its hands, and can't wield a weapon in any hand while moving at all. That is, again, not an accurate description of a war elephant's trunk according to the historical evidence.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

You can't simply add Extra Arms to a Horizontal animal, because by RAW it cannot fully use any of its hands like a centaur can, no matter how many hands it has.

I'm guessing some people just ignore that.