01-25-2019, 08:14 PM | #231 | ||||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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You could give all your friends and probably even items auras. If two NPCs with auras touch, collide, or punch each other, they do normal damage plus inflicting auras on each other for each touch. Given the way you bought this, I wouldn't allow it to enhance bullets in a gun (they would tend to go off prior to being shot) prior or during firing. Quote:
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Again, yes, that's why this should not be part of the ability. The power to deflect/stop isn't related to the ability or incorporated in its cost. Quote:
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Characters know when attack rolls against them succeed or fail. They can even know when their active defense succeeds or fails. All-Out Defense (Double) allows you an optional 2nd defense that you only need to take if the 1st one fails, for example. If the 1st succeeds, you aren't obligated to take the 2nd. You can choose AT THAT TIME. Meaning that you really should be able to trigger waits not only after the attack roll succeeds, but also after you make your 1st defense roll, because at that point an attack STILL hasn't hit and you ARE aware that your active defense is a failure. |
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01-26-2019, 10:36 AM | #232 | ||||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
Expanding the scope of an existing benefit might make sense. Adding a benefit that it never had does not.
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Aura allows you to have a switchable "if you touch me or I touch you" trigger added to cause the abilities affects. Area allows you to extend the effects of an ability to an area. You're suggesting that Area can alter the trigger rather than extend the effects. Perhaps that would be fair for certain things (Afflictions where it would just do the same thing but at longer reach), but it's certainly not fair if you're using it to give you a defense that would be more powerful and cheaper than actually buying a defense advantage. Quote:
Flaming Foot of Death 10d burn (Melee R:1, cannot parry -30%) [35] which if I wrote a Melee -30%, you wouldn't know exactly which pieces of melee I was taking. Interestingly Aura requires Melee -30% (C level) but is also cannot get the extra -5% from cannot parry since auras cannot be used to parry (defend). You can either take that as Auras have extra rules that limit the scope of what an Aura can do, or you can take that as melee being priced with the understanding that you'll have the reach of your body even though it's bought with C reach. Either way, it prices out the same as above and it doesn't ever get to defend. Quote:
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Last edited by naloth; 01-26-2019 at 10:40 AM. |
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01-26-2019, 01:59 PM | #233 | |||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
B107 "Ranged" says "gives range to an advantage that normally affects your immediate area, or that requires a touch to affect others." Would you oppose taking Ranged+Emanation (net +20%) to enable AE on Aura? Your opposition seems to be based on the idea that you should only be able to take AE on "range" instead of "reach" abilities?
Also wondering, with the insistence of Auras working like Melee Attacks, do you think you can AOA:Strong with an Aura to get a damage bonus? Quote:
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Read Aura, see what it says. It lists both the -30% melee and the restrictions adding it on imposes. [/quote]"affects anyone you touch (reach C) or who touches you" Come to think of it, I could be wrong about kicking. Since "reach C" is in parenthesis, an aura might not affect anyone you kick at reach 1. Or punch, if you have long arms and can punch at reach 1, because that's beyond reach C. If you want to be super-literal, "If a weapon strikes you, your aura affects the weapon" only refers to the 2nd half. It shouldn't allow auras to affect weapons you strike, only weapons which strike you. B59 Healing also has pretty restrictive guidelines: You must be in physical contact with the subject.There's no special notes on B59 or P51 being some "custom" modifier for healing. P100 however: Area Effect makes it possible to affect groups of people with non-attack advantages that normally affect just one target; e.g., Healing, Mind Control, and Telekinesis.Innate Attacks can be perceived "non-attack advantages" when they are made into Auras. You no longer make attacks with them, instead you use Readies (or Concentrates, if you change from physical to mental) to switch them on and off. The examples given for "non-attack advantage" don't conform to P235's "Any ability that can injure an opponent or compromise his capabilities – most often Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, Leech, or Neutralize." definition of "attack ability", since being Mind Controlled can compromise capabilities. It makes them "Reprogrammable". Affliction (Disadvantage) would affect "capabilities" in the same way. Telekinesis can result in attacks on targets, but the user is not actually attacking, it is their TK attacking after they do a Concentrate maneuver to activate it. Same with Mind Control and forcing enemies to attack. Aura's like that. The user just activates it, they never attack directly with it, and that is what "attack advantage" means in this context. I believe this wording on P100 may be the basis for the idea of applying AEs to Auras. Due to that, the 4 bullets (multiplying FP cost by radius, separate contests, penalty summing, same effects) should apply. Quote:
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I would suggest incorporating "Do or Die Bullet Dodging" by T-Bone (Pyramid 3/34 page 26) if you want the rules to work differently: adventurers must announce a dodge (or other valid defense) without knowing the result of attack rolls Quote:
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Last edited by Plane; 01-26-2019 at 02:03 PM. |
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01-26-2019, 06:27 PM | #234 | |||||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Your rather convoluted argument still relies on notions of what they could do if the GM decides to alter how ranged attacks are treated, incorporate some of your ideas on expanding their profile to have a physical, attack-able component, then allows Auras to effectively create a defensive shield around you (even though Auras expressly can't defend) at a longer reach than the other modifiers permit. The bottom line has always been that in a point based system abilities are based on paying points for the mechanics they provide. How you explain those mechanics working in a particular game world to achieve that effect doesn't alter the game mechanics nor do those explanations give you advantages that would effectively be new powers. Quote:
[quote]AuraIAs always had the benefit of thwacking stuff that hit the target.[quote] Yes, the guy with aura being hit is the trigger for it to "thwack" anything. Quote:
Of course, this is entirely aside from the other problem, that you still don't have a reasonable rationale for attacks targeting *dice* of damage with any basis in the rules. Quote:
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Mind Control allows you to direct someone, so I suppose you're indirectly attacking, but there's still a 1 to 1, you do, action happens relationship. Aura isn't like either of those. Aura has a trigger: touch, which works on targets after they contact you. Even if you can extend that area, the mechanics still don't say anything about negating/affecting attacks before they contact you to trigger the aura. In the case of the "persistent damage area" it's assessed once per turn. It's not intended to stop dice of damage from anything. Indeed, if you had someone already inside your Aura and he fired a gun, it wouldn't make sense to assess it against the bullet (since it's already been assessed against the character prior). Quote:
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01-26-2019, 06:28 PM | #235 | ||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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If P says they are going to wait until they see E attacking, PC's wait will trigger when PC sees E making any attack i.e. GM says, he reaches for a gun, points at gun at you, etc. If P says they are going to wait until E hits them, PC's wait will trigger when PC is hit. PC doesn't know if any given attack is going to hit, or if his defense will work. If the PC doesn't act prior to being hit and defending, the PC *can't* know how the attack will turn out. Quote:
I was saying that doing that in other situations is generally bad role playing, such as when your buddy spots something, but your PC reacts on that info even though your PC doesn't know that info. In other cases, such as firing at a piece on the board someone else can see but your PC can't and wouldn't even know about, it's even prohibited. In either case, taking a maneuver based on something your character does not know isn't something to encourage. Note that, again, I'm discussing maneuvers which are a wholly different beast than Active Defenses. Trying to game a Wait maneuver based on the outcome of dice and defenses is meta-gaming, since your character won't know the outcome until they witness the outcome in the game world (what we call events). In fact, it's a fairly common thing for GMs to roll attacks, defenses, perception checks, and other things behind a screen such that even the players don't know the actual outcome until they need to defend. (Besides, every GM at one time or another has done a "fiat" result instead of taking what the dice show.) Quote:
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To put it another way, if you're triggering on any attack that will hit, but you stop it, then it wouldn't have hit, and you shouldn't have triggered the wait. You've created a paradox and destroyed that universe. |
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01-27-2019, 07:10 PM | #236 | |||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Power defenses aren’t mundane defenses, though. A hero can attempt a Power Block and a mundane block on the same turn, has no penalty on future parries if he tries a Power Parry, and can attempt a Power Parry during a Move and Attack. Quote:
I think you would also know if a Sacrificial Dodge (or Block/Parry) would succeed, because if one of those manages to stop an attack, you choose not to actively defend. Quote:
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"Wow, that ogre is throwing a massive punch at me, but I can tell from his stance that his fist is going to miss my face by a couple of inches, so I'm not going to cross-parry with both my knives and lose my ability to parry for the rest of the turn. Quote:
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01-28-2019, 08:01 AM | #237 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Waits are based on game world events (things that have happened). Active Defenses are rolled when the GM tells you something could happen. One is a maneuver, the other is an action that happens as a reaction if you took a maneuver that allowed it. Quote:
The rules permit you a defense after I tell you, but at that point it's too late for your character to interrupt what I've already done. Quote:
Let's look at the implications of your Wait interrupt. What if you punch someone for 5 damage (no HPT), after they rolled and hit you by a MoS of 1? Are you suggesting that they now miss due to shock? If they missed, it was because you inflicted shock penalties *prior* to any attack they took to prevent it from ever having a chance to hit you. Indeed, you could do enough damage that they couldn't have *initiated* an attack that caused the Wait trigger. If the hit by a MoS of 1 stands, then you'll still take the hit and your attack takes effect afterwards. Backing the game up, reassessing the attacker's ability to attack, and potentially negating something before it could happen, breaks the flow of time. Defenses don't do that. You rolled a dodge to get out of the way of where an attack was going to be. You didn't roll a dodge to go back in time to prevent the attacker from making the attack. |
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01-28-2019, 02:58 PM | #238 | ||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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When whether or not you waste your costly warping hinges upon whether or not there's a value in warping away, it seems like the warper would know that the attack missed and that's why they didn't bother to teleport in response to it. Quote:
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That something might be "an enemy throws an attack that will not hit me unless stopped or avoided" or "an enemy throws an attack that will hit me unless stopped or avoided". There's no backing up time involved. Quote:
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Due to that, if you could react instantly with zero delay between trigger and delivery, you should be able to. However since most attacks would have some realistic delay between trigger and delivery, doing some kind of rolling to see if you do it quickly enough to inflict the shock before the bullet leaves the barrel sounds like a fair approach. Quote:
A parallel I could use would be the idea of using Obscure as some kind of Power Dodge. Obscure doesn't let you dodge attacks, but if someone was attacking you and you wanted to react by obscuring them after they began their attack but before they finished it, a successful power dodge meaning they could apply the penalty to the roll (a failure meaning they reacted too late, and can't apply it to THAT roll) sounds fair. Quote:
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"May not attempt a success roll" isn't "may not act". If a GM wants you to roll at -20 to ST to lift some heavy object but your ST is only 10, it doesn't mean you can't TRY to lift it, just that you will fail. If speed/range penalties reduce your skill below 3 it doesn't mean you can't fire a gun/arrow to try and hit the thing, it's just so hopeless you shouldn't try at all (if you have common sense to realize your own limits) because failure is guaranteed. If someone doesn't have common sense and doesn't make attacks without rolling, there is the weird benefit that they can't critically fail (since they do not roll) which is weird, so allowing them to roll just to see if they miss normally or miss critically would be a good house rule. |
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01-28-2019, 04:04 PM | #239 | |||||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Besides, all you know is the time you rolled was the time it mattered. Your character was presumably doing other things at other times, it just wasn't important. Quote:
That's the opposite of Active Defenses which are done on demand, not used until needed, and chosen after you see what your opponent is doing. Quote:
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Second, it makes no sense that you could prevent the action you're supposed to be reacting to. Third, active defenses don't prevent the attack from happening. If you were just avoiding or deflecting the attack, you'd be doing what the game calls an "active defense." Quote:
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aura of power, persistent |
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