User-terminable durations

[transmetahuman]

Most advantages that affect other people directly seem to be "fire and forget" abilities - once you've made your activation roll and determined the duration, you have no control over when it ends. There are exceptions, that require continued concentration, but I'm not talking about them here.

Let's say you want some kind of bodily transformation Affliction attack (Shinking, Alternate form, whatever) that you and only you can dispel at will. Terminal Condition isn't thhe way to go; the power is *more* useful thhan it would be normally. What level of enhancement do you think would be fair?

I'm sure there would be some way to do this with a separate power, heavily limited (maybe ranged static? haven't been following the thread where you guys are hacking out the dispel magic equivalent lately), but I want to do it as a house rule enhancement.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

Let's say you want some kind of bodily transformation Affliction attack (Shinking, Alternate form, whatever) that you and only you can dispel at will. Terminal Condition isn't thhe way to go; the power is *more* useful thhan it would be normally. What level of enhancement do you think would be fair?

Does the +300% version of Permanent fail in some way? Since the +150% version must have a "reasonable set of conditions" that will dispel it (which is usually assumed to be something the target might be able to do itself or might be reasonably expected to occur naturally), having the effect only end upon the originator's will seems like the more expensive version.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Does the +300% version of Permanent fail in some way? Since the +150% version must have a "reasonable set of conditions" that will dispel it (which is usually assumed to be something the target might be able to do itself or might be reasonably expected to occur naturally), having the effect only end upon the originator's will seems like the more expensive version.

1) I think this is actually more useful for a permanent effect than what I assume is covered by the +300% enhancement. +300% lets you turn someone to stone, or into a frog, or whatever... forever and ever, whether you like it or not. At least, that's what I assume.

2) The enhancement I had in mind would be just as applicable for lower levels of Extended Duration, or even no levels. It'd be nice to be able to vanish your persistant poison gas cloud with a wave of your hand, before it would dissipate normally - nice enough to warrant an enhancement, IMO. That's assuming I'm correct about the fire-and-forget default; maybe this ability to control your effects *is* the default. But I doubt it.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

1) I think this is actually more useful for a permanent effect than what I assume is covered by the +300% enhancement. +300% lets you turn someone to stone, or into a frog, or whatever... forever and ever, whether you like it or not. At least, that's what I assume.

2) The enhancement I had in mind would be just as applicable for lower levels of Extended Duration, or even no levels. It'd be nice to be able to vanish your persistant poison gas cloud with a wave of your hand, before it would dissipate normally - nice enough to warrant an enhancement, IMO. That's assuming I'm correct about the fire-and-forget default; maybe this ability to control your effects *is* the default. But I doubt it.

1. I believe that that you are correct, that this is the default assumption.

2. Compare this to Variable, which allows you to vary the damage from an attack. Your proposal (essentially a version of Variable that affects the duration) seems less useful, to me. I'd be inclined to call it a +0% special effect, myself (an extension of the proposal in my earlier reply), but certainly not more than the +5% implied by Variable.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

2. Compare this to Variable, which allows you to vary the damage from an attack. Your proposal (essentially a version of Variable that affects the duration) seems less useful, to me. I'd be inclined to call it a +0% special effect, myself (an extension of the proposal in my earlier reply), but certainly not more than the +5% implied by Variable.

Hmmm. I'd see Variable as letting you pre-set the duration - and I'd probably lump that in with its normal effect, letting you set intensity and duration with the same +5% enhancement. I think the ability to turn off your own effect at will, at a previously unspecified time in the future, is more valuable than a pre-set duration.

4e doesn't seem to have an equivalent of HERO's Dispel. Neutralize only targets the user of an ability, not its already-established effect, right? And Static seems like a protective ability, not a curative one to me. So this enhancement would be especially valuable for permanent effects at the +300% level, where your agreement becomes the only hope the victim or his friends have of reversing the effect (barring the availability of improbably specific, permanent Negated Advantage/Negated Disadvantage Afflictions elsewhere).

I honestly was thinking more along the lines of +20% originally. If no one else chimes in on this thread, though, I'll assume the board agrees with Not Another Shrubbery that it's a more trivial enhancement than I was thinking, and probably go with +10%.

Thanks for your input, NAS!

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

4e doesn't seem to have an equivalent of HERO's Dispel. Neutralize only targets the user of an ability, not its already-established effect, right? And Static seems like a protective ability, not a curative one to me. So this enhancement would be especially valuable for permanent effects at the +300% level, where your agreement becomes the only hope the victim or his friends have of reversing the effect (barring the availability of improbably specific, permanent Negated Advantage/Negated Disadvantage Afflictions elsewhere).

IMO, this should be no more than a +0% modifier at the +300% level of Permanent, since you are paying a +150% premium over the level of permanent which allows for ending the effect upon a fixed circumstance.

I think 10% is still a little high, but it's a minor difference [I'm inclined to prefer overcharging anyway :)]. Always glad to offer my opinion... I hope it helped.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

IMO, this should be no more than a +0% modifier at the +300% level of Permanent, since you are paying a +150% premium over the level of permanent which allows for ending the effect upon a fixed circumstance.

I think 10% is still a little high, but it's a minor difference [I'm inclined to prefer overcharging anyway :)]. Always glad to offer my opinion... I hope it helped.

I don't mean to come across as arguing with you by my repeated responses here (your comments did help, obviously) - this is just a partial explanation:

I've been strongly considering eliminating the +150% version of Permanent and just using a modified Terminal Condition, to allow for more variation on the value of different conditions. So, a TC that the victim (or his allies) could effect would be a limitation; one exclusively under the control of the user would be the enhancement. TC for an ability with permanent would be more of a limitation (just as it is now, effectively -150%), because lower durations already have a built-in, effortless TC: "wait for a while". The same reasoning might make me take your advice and leave the enhancement version at +0% when used with Permanent, actually... it's better for the victim if there is a TC, even if that involves coercing the user, than it would be if there wasn't one at all.

The big question (if I go ahead with this) is whether to keep the base Permanent at +300%; then I'll work out the values of TC's-with-Permanent to fit what's in the book.

[laserdog]

I agree, it's more useful than complete permancy, especially if it continues, by default, in the event of your death.

I'd model it as a new power altogether.

Buy the initial effect with permanent.

And then buy the power to reverse your power, based on either an Affliction(Remove advantage) or Healing (Accessability: My effects only)?

In any case, that's my two cents.

[Fnordianslip]

Usually, when I get up to +300% with an enhancement, I just write off the additional utility and call it +300%. Not entirely satisfying, but, making it +310% seems like excessive bookkeeping. Maybe just say that the fact that you can revoke it is roughly equal to the hassle of other people being able to force you to revoke it. It probably isn't exactly equal, but, I'd just leave it at +300% and call it good.

[vitruvian]

And then buy the power to reverse your power, based on either an Affliction(Remove advantage) or Healing (Accessability: My effects only)?

In any case, that's my two cents.

Here's a point I haven't seen addressed - if the initial ability is part of a series of Alternate Abilities, do the effects on the target cease once you switch to another ability, or does a permanentized Affliction stay on them just as damage from an Innate Attack would remain?