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Old 11-26-2008, 11:47 PM   #111
nik1979
 
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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ST 14-15 for those bows. That's generally ST 11-13, with Strongbow allowing the higher levels.
1d+2 imp to 1d+3 imp
Fine Arrows would give it +1 dmg.

Cheap arrows would give it a +2 breakage value but IMO I'd rather give it a (0.5) Armor Divisior Against Metal Armor of Good Quality or better. It is a disadvantage more surely felt. Since Cheap quality is the most common quality, it should prove useful in the game to spend a good farthing for good or fine arrows.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:49 PM   #112
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by nik1979
1d+2 imp to 1d+3 imp
Fine Arrows would give it +1 dmg.

Cheap arrows would give it a +2 breakage value but IMO I'd rather give it a (0.5) Armor Divisior Against Metal Armor of Good Quality or better. It is a disadvantage more surely felt. Since Cheap quality is the most common quality, it should prove useful in the game to spend a good farthing for good or fine arrows.
I'd agree with that, tell you the truth. It'd explain why cloth armor was deemed sufficient to stop most arrows, if you consider that a good number of shots are at 1/2 damage range or greater.
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:39 AM   #113
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by JAW
Well - one handed lift of a thing from goround to over ones head in two seconds is 2*BL. Drawing a bow is shorter than from ground to over ones head. It's effectively one handed though it's not easier to draw a bow with two hand than would be drawing it one handed if the other part was fixed..

but 2* BL gives only 40 LBS for average guy..
8*BL - two handed lift could be closer.
If a standard (min strenght 11) longbow is 100LBS an average guy could barely draw it fully - giving -1 to hit. ST 11 is enough for 150LBS bows with no problem then..
Sport archery guides recommend #45-#65 bows for normal people, with the lower range for people of small build and the upper range for men 150 lbs. to 180 lbs.

Me and DouglasCole agreed that the optimal draw weight for a trained archer was between 2.5xBL to 3xBL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAW
However GURPS bows hit max damage only at thrust+4 so the upper tolerance for longbow would be strenght 17 and for composite bow strength 15..
Judging from reverse engineered damage and range, it's quite likely that the maximum ST for a historical longbow found was ST 18.

Of course, the ST damage scale in GURPS is somewhat off at higher levels, so that's not a good benchmark.
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Old 11-27-2008, 12:39 PM   #114
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Icelander
Me and DouglasCole agreed that the optimal draw weight for a trained archer was between 2.5xBL to 3xBL.
There's also very little difference between changing the BL multipliers for things like skill and special exercises and whatnot and increasing the ST of the bow.

If one had a quickie formula for draw weight, draw length, and efficiency to energy (for example, weight x length x effieciency) and then convert to damage (need to know effective cross-section of the arrow, or just assume they're all the same) through another factor, then going with alterations to basic lift would be the most sensible.

So for example, Strongbow would allow you to go from (say) 2.5x basic lift to 35% higher than that (the equivalent of a ST12 to ST14 bow), or 3.375xBL. The Special Exercises perk would be about +15% to +20% to draw weight per level. In fact, for both of them, I'd suggest Strongbow be +20% to draw weight at DX (or DX+1, whatever the rule is) and +40% at DX+2. Same with special exercises...+20% to draw weight for each level, rather than truly adding ST, at 4/level or something. This is slightly less useful than generic ArmST, but basically becomes the equivalent of ST for "bow only," which assumes that your exercises are so special they're only good for one thing.

The great part about all this percentage stuff is that it's so easy in play: each level of the above adds 0.5 to your BL multiplier. So from BLx2.5 to 3.0 to 3.5...up to a max of BLx4.5 for "normal" guys.

This means that BL20 (ST10) guy with lots of practice and training and exercise can draw up to a 100lb bow. Someone who's ST20 and does all of these things in addition to being uber-strong can potentially draw a bow of up to 80x4.5 = 400lbs(!). However, you'd probably need higher tech level stuff (spring steel? carbon composites? magic?) to have such a bow actually be buildable.

Still and all, in the Runelords series by Farland, "Endowments of Brawn" allow people to have the strength of "ten men" and whatnot, and they make explicit mention of steel bows that only Force Soliders can draw, which is nice because it allows GURPS to model such. A ST20 person (4x basic lift of a ST10 average guy) would be a person with the strength of 4 men, and having him be able to draw a 400lb bow would be cool.

Now, in terms of the actual damage formula, if we assume (ha!) the basis for a longbow's efficiency gives a 150lb bow 1.5 dice of damage (which is about right when all is said and done), then the damage done by other power bows is (sqrt (Bow Draw/150)) x 1.5 dice.

that would give us roughly this:

Code:
Draw 	Points	Dice
36	2.5	1d-1
70	3.5	1d
113	4.5	1d+1
170	5.5	1d+2
197	6	2d-1
273	7	2d
354	8	2d+1
You have to pull a bow of equal or greater draw weight to get that amount of dice, but it puts a 150lb longbow at 1d+1 like it should be based on previous discussions, and puts the scaling of bow damage on the same page as firearms...sqrt(KE). A typical hunting bow at 70lbs draw woulud be 1d, warbows would mostly be 1d+1 except for a few exceptional bows at 170-180lbs (consistent with the high end of history) at 1d+2, and super-bows at 200lbs and higher.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 11-28-2008 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 11-27-2008, 01:06 PM   #115
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Icelander
Of course, the ST damage scale in GURPS is somewhat off at higher levels, so that's not a good benchmark.
This is perhaps subject matter for another thread, but I'd love to get the explanation for this.
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Old 11-27-2008, 01:12 PM   #116
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Boobis
This is perhaps subject matter for another thread, but I'd love to get the explanation for this.
The relationship between Basic Lift and force exerted with a thrust or swing does not remain constant. Basic Lift advances with ST in a believable way that fits the real world.

Damage does not.

A ST 20 man is 4 times as strong as a ST 10 man when it comes to lifting, pulling and dragging. On the other hand, he can exert much more force with a swung sword than implied by that difference.
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:52 PM   #117
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Because we were discussing English yeoman archers, I thought I'd share a template from my fantasy setting. This is not an English archer, but with minimal modifications, he'd be pretty close to my view of them.

Dalelands yeoman archer (113 CPs)

An enthusiastic archer who practises daily. He fights with his militia when his Dale is threathened, but is not a professional soldier. Nevertheless, the fact he can draw a great warbow make him a valued member of any militia force. Woodcraft skills have been gained while hunting.

Attributes
ST 11 [10]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 11 [5].

Secondary attributes
HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 11 [5]; FP 11 [0].
Basic Speed 5.25 [0], Basic Move 5 [0].

5'9"+; 150+ lbs. (SM 0) Age 18+.

Social Background and Languages
TL: 3 [0]
CF: Western Heartlands [0].
Languages: Chondathan (Native/None) [-3]; Common (Accented/None) [0].

Perks
Special Exercises (Arm ST +2) [2]
Strongbow [1]
Style Familitarity (Foot Archery) [1]

Advantages
Arm ST +2 [10]
Fearlessness 1 [2]
Fit [5]
Outdoorsman Talent 1 [10]


Disadvantages
Duty (Dale militia, 6-) [-5]
Sense of Duty (Dalefolk) [-10]

Quirks
Any.

Skills
Animal Handling: Sheep and Goats (IQ+0) -10 [2], Area Knowledge: Home Dale (IQ+2) -12 [4], Armory: Missile Weapons/TL3 (Optional Specialisation: Bowyer/Fletcher) (IQ+2) -12/-10 [4], Axe/Mace (DX-1) -9 [1], Bow (DX+2) -12 [8], Bow Sport (DX+3) -13 [12], Brawling (DX+0) -10 [1], Broadsword (DX+0) -10 [2], Camouflage (IQ+2) -12 [2], Carpentry/TL3 (IQ+0) -10 [1], Climbing (DX-1) -9 [1], Farming (IQ+2) -12 [8], First-Aid (IQ+0) -10 [1], Games (Archery) (IQ+1) -11 [2], Hiking (HT+0) -11 [2], Knife (DX+1) -11 [2], Lifting (HT-1) -11 [1]; Observation (Per+1) -12 [4], Navigation (Land) (IQ-1) -9 [1], Scrounging (Per+1) -12 [2], Shield (DX+0) -10 [1], Spear (DX+0) -10 [2], Soldier/TL 3 (IQ-1) -9 [1], Stealth (DX+0) -10 [2], Survival: Forest (Per+1) -12 [2], Swimming (HT+0) -11 [2], Tracking (Per+0) -11 [1], Traps (IQ-1) -9 [1], Wrestling (DX+0) -10 [2].

Techniques
None


Attributes [20]
Secondary Attributes [5]
Social Background [-3]
Perks [4]
Advantages [27]
Disadvantages [-15]
Quirks [0]
Skills [75]
Techniques [0]


Total [113]
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Old 11-27-2008, 07:50 PM   #118
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by Icelander
Bow (DX+2) -12 [8], Bow Sport (DX+3) -13 [12]
Why not Bow Sport-15[20], Bow-12[0]?
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Old 11-27-2008, 07:55 PM   #119
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole
Why not Bow Sport-15[20], Bow-12[0]?
For one thing, Foot Archery includes both Bow and Bow Sport, so it's necessary to have points in both.

For another, because these are not necessarily supposed to be the best sport archers in their Dale.

And because they've practised both Combat Sport and Combat version of their skill. They've focused a bit more on Bow Sport, but they regularly use Bow as well.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:19 AM   #120
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Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
Sport archery guides recommend #45-#65 bows for normal people, with the lower range for people of small build and the upper range for men 150 lbs. to 180 lbs.

Me and DouglasCole agreed that the optimal draw weight for a trained archer was between 2.5xBL to 3xBL.


Judging from reverse engineered damage and range, it's quite likely that the maximum ST for a historical longbow found was ST 18.

Of course, the ST damage scale in GURPS is somewhat off at higher levels, so that's not a good benchmark.
Well - warbows are different from sport bows obviously. I reckon at least longbows would be usable at half their listed draw strength - if their draw curve is indeed curving up a "half drawn" 150 lbs longbow would require maybe that 65lbs - ie optimal for ST 11 - the min strenght. And it might indeed be good enough to be accurate - though not as accurate as a modern sport bow designed for 65lbs full draw at ranges given for ST 11.

Way to reality test this would of course be having a fairly regular ST 11 archer shoot with a replica longbow that is 150 lbs at full draw..
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