Bearings in space

[LoganSaj]

Does anyone know the proper way to navigate in space? Since on earth, the point of reference is the poles for NSEW. But in space (specifically deep space, where there is no gravitational point of reference) what is the method for determining the course, bearing or direction of a target or path? In, say Star Wars, the dialogue seems to be made up of random numbers ("Set course to oh-three-five" - which means ...?).

And before someone says it, I would prefer not to "wing it", as I like to have a modicum scientific realism in my stories. ;)

My first thought was that it would be a target or the ship itself as the 0-point reference on a XY plot circle. But how do you reference from that? Another idea was that there would have to be a target or point of reference. But, what if you are in deep space, and there's nothing around you but you and another ship?

[Hakubak]

Originally Posted by LoganSaj

Does anyone know the proper way to navigate in space? Since on earth, the point of reference is the poles for NSEW. But in space (specifically deep space, where there is no gravitational point of reference) what is the method for determining the course, bearing or direction of a target or path? In, say Star Wars, the dialogue seems to be made up of random numbers ("Set course to oh-three-five" - which means ...?).

And before someone says it, I would prefer not to "wing it", as I like to have a modicum scientific realism in my stories. ;)

My first thought was that it would be a target or the ship itself as the 0-point reference on a XY plot circle. But how do you reference from that? Another idea was that there would have to be a target or point of reference. But, what if you are in deep space, and there's nothing around you but you and another ship?

The first thing that comes to mind is to pick a point - any will do, but the center of the known universe would be a good one. How you pinpoint that is going to be a bit tricky too.

From there you can establish a line to another point. Go egocentric this time, and pick our sun. Now that line becomes your x axis. The y axis would be a perpendicular line from one of those points, and the z axis would be another perpendicular line from those two.

Sounds easy, right?

Okay, now the problems. The sun isn't sitting still, so your x axis is rotating. Also, we're pretty sure the universe is expanding and we're also pretty sure that time-space itself is expanding with it. Trouble is, time-space isn't uniform. So now all your axis are wobbly lines.

[Qoltar]

Actully this very question was answered in at least THREE Star Trek reference books.
After the first season of NEXT GEN they tried to be consistent about the "bearings issue".
Usually they were measured from the centerpoint of the vessel.
OTHER times - they indicated things were measured from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.

- Ed Charlton

[laserdog]

Originally Posted by LoganSaj

Does anyone know the proper way to navigate in space?

I believe the term is "astrogation"?

And from what I understand, you take a reference "picture" (visible, radio, x-ray) of all the stars you can see, and then tell the computer "calculate the position in the universe/galaxy where the stars would look like this".

The computer could, of course, make some "educated guesses" based on previous navigation logs to make the process go much faster.

Also, afaik all pulsars have unique pulse times, which can make an incredibly useful and indentifiable single points of reference.

This is, of course, assuming a TL of 9+. I believe for the inter-solar space flight of TL 7 and 8 you'd just use fix pointed radio signal beacons to figure out where you're at.

[Qoltar]

Here was one explanation for the "TREK Universe" :

http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpres..._in_star_t.htm


Your Kilometerage may vary....

- Ed Charlton

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Qoltar

Here was one explanation for the "TREK Universe" :

http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpres..._in_star_t.htm


Your Kilometerage may vary....

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kellicam

... Or "Kellicamage", as your preferences may dictate.

That's a nice discussion, though. The kind of thing that a GM running a Space campaign could use. Thanks for sharing, Q!

-P. Mandrekar

[laserdog]

If your concern is just what points of reference a crew could use to set an accurate 3d bearing, that could be accomplished by a set of 3 gyroscopes set to spin on each axis, with deflections caused by acceleration recorded by monitoring instruments.

As long as a fleet calibrates them to all be the same originally, you'd have a ready made standarized method of "up/down, left/right", etc.

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by laserdog

I believe the term is "astrogation"?

And from what I understand, you take a reference "picture" (visible, radio, x-ray) of all the stars you can see, and then tell the computer "calculate the position in the universe/galaxy where the stars would look like this".

The computer could, of course, make some "educated guesses" based on previous navigation logs to make the process go much faster.[...]

This is the way things work in most (but not all, iirc) of Isaac Asimov's books and stories. It's a really bad system for figuring out where you are after a FTL drive malfunction takes you to uncharted space, though, since the computer would need to ignore all 'nearby' stars (which makes the matching process nearly impossible).
Some kind of TL9/TL10 gyroscope system (based on maglev to eliminate friction, etc =-) would probably be a good backup system. It would need to be calibrated perfectly to work long-term, but even the crudest of readings would be helpful when you just want to go back where you came from.

[laserdog]

Originally Posted by Extrarius

It's a really bad system for figuring out where you are after a FTL drive malfunction takes you to uncharted space, though, since the computer would need to ignore all 'nearby' stars (which makes the matching process nearly impossible).

But that's borne out in both ST: Voyager as well as Lost in Space (at least the terrible movie version)?

It's an interesting question on whether moving yourself into a zone where new stars become detectable and old ones are gone, whether the problem is even solvable anymore...

Although, it would seem to only require the detection of a single pulsar with the same timing as one from your old reference point to "pick up the trail" again.

[Hakubak]

Originally Posted by laserdog

But that's borne out in both ST: Voyager as well as Lost in Space (at least the terrible movie version)?

It's an interesting question on whether moving yourself into a zone where new stars become detectable and old ones are gone, whether the problem is even solvable anymore...

Although, it would seem to only require the detection of a single pulsar with the same timing as one from your old reference point to "pick up the trail" again.

Even with our currently limited technology and viewpoint, we've mapped what we can see in 3D. It's a tricky model to do a match/fit to, but your ideas about known pulsar timings is a good one. Also, exactly how fast do your ships go? The problem is a lot simpler if you limit yourself to one galaxy or corner thereof.