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Old 06-13-2019, 04:26 AM   #11
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Coverage

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
That's why I cut the area from 7+ square feet to 5. If we put the boundary at the belt, that 10x12 plate is covering an area that's about 14-15"x16-18", with at least 2" missing on all sides. Discounting the shoulders which are part of the arms, at the top that's the base of the throat and the collar (and the shoulders, but that counts as arms), at the sides it's mostly ribs, at the base it's the stomach and upper intestines (a general problem with GURPS hit locations, not that it's easy to fix in other game systems either, is that you can miss and hit something else).
A number of hit locations in GURPS have that 'miss by 1, hit the Torso' rule). I've often though that aiming for the Torso should be at -1, and missing by one means hitting a random non-torso location.
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Old 06-13-2019, 04:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

While statting up Body armour, remember that non NIJ armor has different acceptable Backface deformation, and might require special rules to account for that
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:29 AM   #13
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Is deflection an issue in modern ballistic vests that anyone knows of?
That is, as well as adsorbing impacts, do the vests attempt to shed a hit sideways?
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

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Is deflection an issue in modern ballistic vests that anyone knows of?
That is, as well as adsorbing impacts, do the vests attempt to shed a hit sideways?
No. If it happens, bonus, but it's not an intentional part of the design. In fact, modern soldiers are trained to adopt a stance that presents the torso more squarely to the threat, so that the plate is more likely to catch any hits.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Safariland Protech TAC PR Package (w/ 4400 Type IV Plate)

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Unscientific anecdotal sales figures that indicate that civilian 'adventurers' or those who like to prepare for potential adventure situations, regardless of plausibility, are buying rifle resistant steel plates + spalling protection + plate carriers when they would previously not have been able to afford (or at least not wanted to devote the budget to) any rifle resistant body armor at all.
Well, it seems that you are getting your information from yourself, or have self-created it from the campaign setting that you are advising on as expounded on last year's (maybe more) thread.

You used the phrase "viable alternative", where "substandard alternative" is more apt.

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"The field of personal body armor is growing by leaps and bounds and part of that growth is rifle resistant armor becoming much more affordable. ...
There are other reasons for that, but i just don't have the inclination to sift through the volumes of unnecessary verbiage that this conversation will produce to get to the nuggets of that and other topics being assumed.

Put me down for Jerk [-15], and yourself as Pedantic [-15].

Last edited by seycyrus; 06-13-2019 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

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Originally Posted by fula farbrorn View Post
While statting up Body armour, remember that non NIJ armor has different acceptable Backface deformation, and might require special rules to account for that
I've thought about having the Blunt Trauma rules depend to some degree on the design, quality and padding of the armor. Instead of a flat 1/10 damage for piercing against all Flexible armor, armor with greater deformation and/or insufficient padding might offer reduced Blunt Trauma protection, down to 1/5 damage or even worse.

Note, however, that any bullet that flexible body armor will stop has pretty limited momentum. Pistol rounds have less momentum than Little League baseballs, which means painful hits and bruising is absolutely a realistic effect of armor stopping a rated round, but significant injury usually isn't. It's also perfectly possible for soft body armor to stop a pistol round and distribute the impact as designed so that the wearer never notices the hit, not until after the threat is over.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:38 AM   #17
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Default Body Armor, Budget to Cutting Edge

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Well, it seems that you are getting your information from yourself, or have self-created it from the campaign setting that you are advising on as expounded on last year's (maybe more) thread.
Well, no. Entirely different campaign, for one thing.

However, there is an element of truth to it, as I certainly would not have any idea about the US market without campaign preparations. While going through the websites of gun stores, survivalist home sites, advertisements for gun shows and various commercial stores that sell adventuring equipment (e.g. Academy, Walmart, etc.), as I tried to model how villainous NPCs in the service of an occult organization would acquire paramilitary equipment on short notice, I saw that steel Level III plates were consistently listed among body armor ranked by 'Popularity'.

As it happened, the OpFor in that particular scenario (who had a straw purchaser buy their guns in the morning and had time for one Walmart and Academy stop on the way) were not equipped with body armour. Or, rather, three of them personally owned concealable Level II or IIIA body armor, which is pretty irrelevant for a combat situation where rifles are used.

One of them did buy steel plate armor at Walmart, the Tactical Scorpion 4 Pc Level III AR500 Body Armor Muircat 11x14 Vest, but it didn't help, as he sustained a hit to the head.

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You used the phrase "viable alternative", where "substandard alternative" is more apt.
'Viable' in the sense that steel plates that pass testing for NIJ Level III absolutely exist. You may not feel that their economic pricing and generally longer warranty period (up to 20 years) outweight the disadvantages, but plenty of survivalists, 'Sovereign citizens', militia group members and doomsday preppers appear to disagree.

Many reputable vendors and manufacturers of the models of rifle resistant body armor popular with law enforcement will not sell to private individuals without certificates of LEO status or similar. Body armor is not restricted by law, but there are many companies that nevertheless have their own policy of restricting access to their wares. In many cases these manufacturers do sell their ballistic panels or plates to third party vendors, who will resell to private citizens online and at gun shows (which makes it seem they are avoiding bad press, not actually trying to prevent civilian access), but it definitely makes it rather tricky to get reliable information on the testing and composition of ceramic composite or polyethylene plates available for purchase.

Also, it makes it hard for NPCs who discover that the End Times are Nigh to quickly get advanced rifle proof body armor, without leaving a paper trail. Steel plates, however, can be bought in a lot of stores, including Walmart, it appears. And all kinds of kooky people order it online, at least according to prepper guides, survivalist forums and websites offering vody armor for sale online, with offerings ranked by popularity.

In my campaign, at least, PCs are likely to face domestic terrorists with occult ideology, militia groups serving cults or self-proclaimed gods, cartel sicarios led by sorcerers or previously ordinary people driven to what seems like spontaneous violence by supernatural influences. Some of these might have skills, connections and resources that allow them access to any kind of arms they want.

More frequently, however, they are armed with what they could purchase commercially without drawing attention, which means either what is in stock at gun stores (and Walmart) or what they can buy at gun shows. In short, their equipment resembles the subculture of doomsday preppers and militia members. If they have body armor, it's a lot more likely to be the kind that a small survivalist store, Walmart or a militia compound stocks than it is to be the newest military or law enforcement model.

That being said, aside from coverage issues, I'm not all that concerned about how to stat body armor for cult militias. I'm looking for how to stat the models that PCs might wear, either those of law enforcement agencies they cooperate with or what PSCs might buy.

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Originally Posted by seycyrus View Post
There are other reasons for that, but i just don't have the inclination to sift through the volumes of unnecessary verbiage that this conversation will produce to get to the nuggets of that and other topics being assumed.

Put me down for Jerk [-15], and yourself as Pedantic [-15].
There is no need to discuss steel plates if you don't want to. I'm still looking for suggestions on what are the best commercial off-the-shelf options for body armor, both concealable multi-threat for all day wear and overt rifle resistant patrol vests to keep in the car.

The PCs' Patron, J.R. Kessler, gives lavishly to local law enforcement (if you want to fund Monster Hunters in secret, it helps to be friends with the Sheriff). He's donated body armor for the Chambers, Galveston and Jefferson County Sheriff's Offices in 2016-2018, to include all day wear and rifle resistant armor. The budget for both combined is ca $3,000 per deputy and the vests to wear all day should be comfortable, have good coverage and ideally, some stab/spike protection as well as Level IIIA ballistic rating (because Kessler is aware that in a world with monsters, cops may face more dangerous threats at close range).

What are some high quality models of body armor that are good value at these budgets?
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Checking a manufacturer who offers both, they list a level III steel plate at 7.6 lb, a HDPE plate at 3.4 lb (standalone)/2.6 lb (in combination with a level IIIa vest). It's cheaper, but it's a lot heavier.
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

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Checking a manufacturer who offers both, they list a level III steel plate at 7.6 lb, a HDPE plate at 3.4 lb (standalone)/2.6 lb (in combination with a level IIIa vest). It's cheaper, but it's a lot heavier.
That's fair and as far as I can tell, no police department or sheriff's office in Texas bought steel plates for the Rifle-Resistant Body Armor Grant they got from the Governor.

On the other hand, polyethylene armor is only warranted to have a shelf life of five years and ceramic composites often have similarly short warranties. That's apparently acceptable for law enforcement agencies in the US, which are phenomenally well funded in this area when considered on a global scale.

For that matter, even if Iceland doesn't issue rifle resistant armor except to SWAT, our police is probably fairly well funded compared to most of the world. I know that my friend could get expired Level IV ceramic plates for free, because law enforcement agencies are usually not even allowed to use them after their listed expiration date. So, replacing them every five years is what police usually do.

But private individuals preparing for (or actively planning) the end of civilization might view the eventual expiration date of body armor through different eyes. If you're preparing to rule as an armed militia over the post-apocalyptic wasteland created by the occult ritual to summon your dark masters, you can presumably not rely on being able to replace body armor that has lost structural integrity from being stored in the blazing sunlight of your Fallout Mythos world.

Steel may not be as light as advanced composites, but it doesn't have an expiration date, either.
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Old 06-13-2019, 04:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Also, are there any good stats for ballistic face protection out there?
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