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Old 01-31-2018, 07:38 PM   #1
martinl
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Default Close Combat Stress Test

It seems like a lot of folks could benefit from a stress test: How ready is *YOUR* delver for close combat?

Lets start with the ones in the books.

Grukuk - Several good options, including brawling, wrestling, and a fine kukri with fast draw. Additionally, her extra attack applies, and it makes closing in on her extra-dangerous - she can attack twice on a wait, IIUC. That DB 2 shield is a bit of a downer in CC though.

Francesco - He can use untrained unarmed combat (ST and DX 12), or use contingency casting for a single combat spell. Staff sling at - seems hopeless. Maybe he should just try to get away and save his energy for all the stop bleeding spells he's going to need after this.

Aelin - This seems like a good time for Frostbite. DB1 shield will get in the way.

Argua - No good weapons, but can punch you in the face for 2d-1, and wrassle at effect ST 22. Getting through the reach 1,2 4d+3 axe is also difficult.

Happy - Happy is a robber, not a fighter. Outside of backstabs, he is not very effective in any kind of combat. He is really good at running and hiding though, so at least he has that.

Jag - Jag should buy a some sort of combat knife - a long knife would even work with his full shortsword skill and fast draw. His DB buckler can just be dropped. Despite all that, as a bard in a wrassling match, his best bet is probably acting to play dead.

LLandor - It pains me to say this, but Lando should just shoot his bow at anyone trying to wrassle him. The bulk penalty puts his skill down to ... (edit) ... 22, since Heroic Archer. Got to admire someone who can shoot a bear in the eye with composite bow while being hugged by it.

Masha - Kick it to death, same as range 1. Using Judo parry & throw to put it on the ground beforehand optional but encouraged. Masha is one of the few pregens who should probably go for close combat instead of avoiding it.

Miao Miao - Brawling 17 and sharp claws and teeth is ... ok. Closing likely to be painful, and she can stop thrust with a rapid strike.

Puddin' - the crossbows are an option here. A long knife would help.

Samar
- Decent brawling and wrestling, good gauntlets. DB 2 shield.

Yvor - Decent gauntlets and unarmed combat skills, but DB3 shield. Should consider a long knife used with shortsword skill. Likely to hurt you on the way in.

Miriam - Gauntlets on default punches. DB2 shield. Get a knife.

Seamus and Zippy the Firewitch - Use spells.

Gotta run. Have at it.

Last edited by martinl; 02-01-2018 at 03:29 AM. Reason: apparently I'm blind
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:45 PM   #2
Kromm
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post

LLandor - It pains me to say this, but Lando should just shoot his bow at anyone trying to wrassle him. The bulk penalty puts his skill down to ... 15.
"Heroic Archer . . . When you Move and Attack or are in close combat, ignore your bow's Bulk penalty instead of adding Acc." Yeah, so, arrows in the eye for everyone.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
Getting through the reach 1,2 4d+3 axe is also difficult.
Having played this character in that exact situation...

No, no it isn't difficult at all. And while Argua does a mighty 2d-1 punching... that's an average of 5 crushing damage which is frankly, weak (especially when your enemy has DR).

She needs a Long Knife, 4 points into Knife, 4 into Fast-Draw (Knife) and another 20 in DX... then she's a fearless CC monster killer. But honestly if I play her again, I'll be happy with 1 point in Knife, 1 in Fast-Draw (Knife), and a Long Knife on the character sheet.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
"Heroic Archer . . . When you Move and Attack or are in close combat, ignore your bow's Bulk penalty instead of adding Acc." Yeah, so, arrows in the eye for everyone.
Darnit, I remembered that, and LOOKED for it, and somehow couldn't find it.

Sheesh.
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Old 02-01-2018, 03:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Having played this character in that exact situation...

No, no it isn't difficult at all.
In an ambush situation this can be true, but ambushes in GURPS are deadly. A bunch of worthy archers surprising the PCs with missile fire would have been similarly deadly.

However, in non-ambush fights, most delvers need to worry a lot more about a CC attacker rushing them by just soaking the hit. Most of the front line fighters can hit you hard enough on the way in to be a kind of protection, so I noted that.

Quote:
And while Argua does a mighty 2d-1 punching... that's an average of 5 crushing damage which is frankly, weak (especially when your enemy has DR).
Average is 6, and that's still better than many of the other delvers' main attacks. It's a huge drop in relative power, sure, but not terrible.
Quote:
She needs a Long Knife, 4 points into Knife, 4 into Fast-Draw (Knife) and another 20 in DX... then she's a fearless CC monster killer. But honestly if I play her again, I'll be happy with 1 point in Knife, 1 in Fast-Draw (Knife), and a Long Knife on the character sheet.
Those 2 cp and $120 do make a big difference, yes.

One of the less obvious advantages of Sword skills in DF is they mostly have a decent close combat knife default. Yvor can use a long knife (as a shortsword) at -2 to broadsword skill. Miao can use one as a main gauche at -3 to rapier. And the scout can use his bow at no penalty in close combat.

Last edited by martinl; 02-01-2018 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

Also: Why would somebody with Wrestling-14 and an effective ST of 23 (base 21, +1 for Lifting ST 1, +1 for Wrestling at DX+1) even bother to punch?

Step 1: Grapple the neck (-3).

Step 2: Turn to Exploits, p. 41 and squeeze! As fantasy spiders lack Doesn't Breathe and No Neck, this works just fine . . . maybe you aren't literally strangling them, but you're doing something terrible. ST 23 vs. a huge spider's ST or HT of 12 means 11 point of crushing damage on average, less DR 2, ×1.5 to the neck, for 13 points of injury – enough to force a consciousness check in one turn, a roll to avoid death in two. It sure won't be breaking free; as the monster description says, spiders are considered two-armed for grappling, so it's ST 12 vs. ST 23 + 5 (grappled with two hands) = 28.

As a bonus, that spider cannot move away and will be attacking at -4 if the GM allows it to attack at all (if you grapple a body part other than the torso, that body part cannot be used to attack, and I'd say the neck or equivalent would negate any possibility of biting).

Frankly, the spider is hosed.

Always compare strangling and striking for very strong characters fighting more-or-less mortal things that breathe. In Argua's case, for instance, strangling is about three times as deadly as punching for 2d-1 crushing vs. DR 2 in this case, and imposes nasty status effects like "cannot move."

Huh, and at ST 23 vs. ST 12, Argua is more than twice as strong and can actually just walk off dragging the spider as encumbrance while she does this. "Hey, cleric need help? Argua comin' over! Bringin' spider, but don' worry – this one almost done!"
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:56 AM   #7
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

Of course, Argua also has six great huge rocks for that sling. If she can't grapple, she'd probably just bash things with those. Hey, 2d is better than 2d-1!
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Also: Why would somebody with Wrestling-14 and an effective ST of 23 (base 21, +1 for Lifting ST 1, +1 for Wrestling at DX+1) even bother to punch?

Step 1: Grapple the neck (-3).
Well, one problem is that's an 11 or less, and the spider can dodge at 9. ~40% chance of success.

If the GM agrees it prevents the spider from biting though, an AoA for +4 to hit would make it a respectable 15, for a more respectable ~60% after dodge. (You can increase it to 62% if you deceptive 1, but that's pretty marginal). Argua's defenses are not great here, so AoA seems reasonable.

As a GM, I'd say I spider breathes with its thorax and bites with its head, and make you grapple its head to prevent counterattacks. Average damage goes down to 9/turn (or 28/turn if GM allows you to grapple the skull) but it stops attacking you, is taking major penalties to knockdown rolls, and if you kill it you crushed it's head.

Argua: "Who's the REAL black widow here buggy?"

I guess there's a reason this lady can use flirting for intimidation rolls.
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Of course, Argua also has six great huge rocks for that sling. If she can't grapple, she'd probably just bash things with those. Hey, 2d is better than 2d-1!
The ready maneuver probably isn't worth it. Can she use Mr. Hacksy as a fist load?
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Close Combat Stress Test

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post

The ready maneuver probably isn't worth it. Can she use Mr. Hacksy as a fist load?
I can't see why not. He's huge, so I'm pretty sure getting cross-checked by him would hurt a lot. (If a player asked me about that specific move, I'd say, "Two-handed blow with a frackin' log? +2 damage.") And it seems well within the purview of Brawling.
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