Altering the Initiative Order

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Well, that's what I get for only looking at Combat Cards.

To be fair to the cards, it's a lot of complicated conditional statements to fit in a small space.

[Anaraxes]

You could also have the wizard Wait. His Wait condition could be always true. ("No matter what the target does..."). He then casts his spell; then knight goes; then mooks go.

Remember, there's no global turn that affects everyone. You don't begin a turn, have everyone act in sequence, then end the turn, and begin a new one. Turns are individual. The point of the sequence is simply to make sure that there is some order in which everyone gets to conduct one maneuver. You want to avoid double actions where someone goes "last in the turn" and then "first in the next turn".

That being the case, you could also just houserule than you can choose any sequence number you like up to your Basic Speed. You just can't change it in a given combat once you make that choice.

It's not terribly unreasonable for coordinated action between two independent actors costing you some freedom and efficiency. You have a plan; the wizard doesn't carry out your part, then in a one-second interval, you're probably still mentally swearing at him and figuring out what to do instead. Your player can take five minutes to gaze at the tactical map and come up with an alternate plan from scratch, but your character can't. On your next turn, you're likely not to Wait for the wizard again since he's proven untrustworthy, and can indeed do whatever you want. If you want to Wait again for the wizard to do what you want him to do, then again you're giving up your freedom of action while everyone else keeps acting, waiting.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You could also have the wizard Wait. His Wait condition could be always true. ("No matter what the target does..."). He then casts his spell; then knight goes; then mooks go.

You can't cast a spell using Wait.

[KingJohn]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Well, the Teamwork perk kind of does what you want.

You could make it a perk. Can put self later in turn order. [1]

You could make it a quirk. Acts after teammates. [-1]

I'm a complete noob: The difference between these is that the first costs points, and the second gives points?

What's to stop me from taking the second one, getting my 1 point, and then saying "I move after the Swashbuckler/Scout" who would normally move before me since their Speed is also 7 and their DX is higher? Is this not, basically, a free point?

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

You could take the disadvantage. Reduced Speed (Only for the purpose of setting my place in the turn sequence in relation to Gandalf and Jim-Bob, -80%) 2 [-8]

Get 8 points back for the 0-point advantage, where my best guess is that this is a benefit 60%+ of the time? Best deal yet!

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Whatever you can talk the GM into.

So far, that appears to be "when init is set, you can set your own init lower than your normal init, permanently for this fight" for 0 points. But that also appears to be dependent on me, her, and the other mad GURPS-guru in the group not being able to find any way to break it.

So! If that's broken, I'd love to see it!

[KingJohn]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

It's not terribly unreasonable for coordinated action between two independent actors costing you some freedom and efficiency.

True, but: Why is it that Knight-Wizard-Monster MUST ALWAYS work better than Wizard-Knight-Monster, or even Monster-Wizard-Knight?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You have a plan; the wizard doesn't carry out your part, then in a one-second interval, you're probably still mentally swearing at him and figuring out what to do instead. Your player can take five minutes to gaze at the tactical map and come up with an alternate plan from scratch, but your character can't. On your next turn, you're likely not to Wait for the wizard again since he's proven untrustworthy, and can indeed do whatever you want. If you want to Wait again for the wizard to do what you want him to do, then again you're giving up your freedom of action while everyone else keeps acting, waiting.

But that's not exactly the situation I'm describing. In the situation in question, where I *am* the Knight in question and Harald387 is the Wizard and Cleric and Bruno is the GM, I want to decide in advance of the fight that I want them to move first. And if that means that some monsters act before me while I wait for them, so be it.

Which is to say: The ENTIRE PLAN, which we all are ready and prepared for and want to enact, involves the wizard hindering people and the Knight stomping them. Why should this be a pain *solely* because the Knight has a better DX *and wants to give it up*?

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by KingJohn

I'm a complete noob: The difference between these is that the first costs points, and the second gives points?

What's to stop me from taking the second one, getting my 1 point, and then saying "I move after the Swashbuckler/Scout" who would normally move before me since their Speed is also 7 and their DX is higher? Is this not, basically, a free point?

The first: Costs you 1 point, allows you to set your initiative to whatever point you want in the turn order when the fight begins.

The second: Gives you 1 point; in order for this to qualify for 'a one point disadvantage', I would have to say 'Always acts after the slowest teammate', not simply 'acts after whichever teammate you like'. Even then, I'm not sure (as a GM) that I'd allow it as a relevant quirk.

Originally Posted by KingJohn

Get 8 points back for the 0-point advantage, where my best guess is that this is a benefit 60%+ of the time? Best deal yet!

This one isn't valid. It's canonical that Basic Speed's feature of setting your place in the initiative order is 0 points. Basic Speed breaks down to 'Enhanced Dodge 1 [15] and Increased Basic Move 1 [5]'; you can't claim 20% of its value as 'Sets your place in the initiative order'.

Originally Posted by KingJohn

So far, that appears to be "when init is set, you can set your own init lower than your normal init, permanently for this fight" for 0 points. But that also appears to be dependent on me, her, and the other mad GURPS-guru in the group not being able to find any way to break it.

This is essentially the first option above (making it a perk), allowing you to do it for free, which is a case of 'The GM doesn't even think this is really worth a perk, and is willing to make it something ANYONE can do'.

[ErhnamDJ]

I'm sure there has to be some way to get this effect using the rules as-is.

You could lower your Basic Speed, and then buy it back with a gadget limitation for when you're holding your sword. Draw your sword after combat has started.

I think my idea of limiting a Reduced Basic Speed disadvantage still works. You just need to use different modifiers if that first set doesn't work. (Outside combat, -?%) might do it. Some type of Accessibility or Uncontrollable. I don't know. You could even do it with Alternate Form, if you didn't mind spending a lot of points on it. Maybe even a disadvantageous Alternate Form. I think those are in Horror. Might be worth looking at.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Is the obvious solution of buying down Basic Speed, and buying up a conditional (Accessibility: Only when fighting alone, -40% (guessing!)) Basic Speed for when you aren't teaming?

[KingJohn]

Originally Posted by Harald387

This is essentially the first option above (making it a perk), allowing you to do it for free, which is a case of 'The GM doesn't even think this is really worth a perk, and is willing to make it something ANYONE can do'.

Fair enough.

It seems, to me, that voluntarily giving up an advantage *in this fight* shouldn't cost many points, even if that "advantage" is less good than not having it in the specific circumstances. I mean, if all the enemies act between the Knight and the WizLeric Amalgam, it is DISADVANTAGEOUS to delay. It seems clear that picking your spot in the init order should cost points, but the degree of points is... unclear.

The problem is not "who moves first", which only matters in the first round, but more "who has the first chance to react to the Controller", which seems like it would matter in every round.

If the monster moves first, the round becomes Monster/Knight/Wizard.

Which is the same, after the first round, as Wizard/Monster/Knight.

The Knight wants Monster/Wizard/Knight.
The Monster wants Wizard/Monster/Knight.

[BaHalus]

It sounds awkwards. Well, take heavier armor to reduce your speed. :-P. Or maybe controlable disadvantage perk: lower speed. Maybe?

It sounds really strange that if can't simply go after the magics all the time.