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Old 06-03-2011, 02:57 AM   #21
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

Industrial equipment can last a long time with maintenance. A couple of the generators at the Niagara power plant are still in use from 1922.
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:33 AM   #22
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
That's pretty tough to do, other than maybe optimizing specific processes associated with staying alive -- tech advancement tends to be a function of the personnel and resources available, and a city just doesn't have a very large pool of resources to draw from, even if it isn't struggling to survive.
Depends. Part of the population have lower life support needs than humans, and the whole world advances its TL more towards DIY and small-scale production (this is what the old version of the world was supposed to have - new might have something similar).
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

I don't know how useful this might be but I heard the biosphere thing went wrong because all the shiny new concrete sucked the carbon out of their air.
Abandoned mines seem tempting.

What was that line from Dr Strangelove - about needing to start populating abandoned mines urgently or the others will have more than us... a pun on the nuclear arms race.
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:56 AM   #24
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

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This sounds interesting... Details?
Long story short:
About 200 rich dictators organize this bunker, and are helped by Friend Computer who does the people-evaluating and some very abstract-level social engineering (read: it still needs people to implement its ideas). Generation of slave-minded people grows up, thanks to advanced brainwashing combined with lack of outside influence, to slowly replace the first generation of non-leaders; even the old generation of non-leaders still has to be ordered around to make them perform anything useful (though they can be very productive, even moderately imaginative and inventive, if properly managed). One by one leaders die. With the last leader dead, Friend Computer's primary directive - to maintain the well-being of the 'Top 200' - becomes irrelevant, so now it acts according to Directive #2 (see relevant thread). It informs the remaining semi-zombified (mentally) people that a new society must be engineered, lays down the basics, and has them do the research and development. Result: third generation grows up, with 'rediscovered' self-awareness, but is very unlike any society that ever existed in our world. In time, the city is 'unsealed', and contacts with outsiders begin. The Justicariate quickly assimilates the technologies that it lacked yet needed, and begins expansion, being well-prepared to colonize the barren landscape (note: only the land in that locale is barren - lots of parts of the planet are teeming with life!).

Please note that I'm trying to adapt a city (and its history/timeline) that was discarded from the setting of the game my office works on, so it will look out of place in the world's timeline - originally it was supposed to be built around TL8-TL9, and a planet-wide apocalypse was supposed to take place; fitting it into a world that is alive and well is tricky.

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I only meant from the standpoint of current biotech - even the synthetic stuff uses lessons we learned from the study of lots of natural products. It's rare for modern pharmaceuticals to be actual natural products - they're almost all modified in some way, and are all-but-universally synthesized, rather than grown. That said, the development of synthetic methods was driven by attempts to recapitulate nature's work and diversify it. There are lots of potential chemical structures, and most of them are boring/toxic/unsuitable - the handful of scaffolds that are interesting from a pharmaceutical standpoint have almost without exception been discovered first in natural sources before being diversified or broken down into pieces (which are themselves interesting).
Hmm.

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In a game this can clearly all be handwaved away - I don't mean to suggest that it breaks suspension of disbelief in a campaign that doesn't focus on it. I just wanted to point out that in our timeline the development of biotech has been heavily dependent on out interaction with the rest of the world, and the biology in it.
Oh well, then I have to think what kind of developments would be more likely in a city that can't get much of an outside world.

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I can totally see the "Age of Terminals" feel, and I liked your post on Mnemocrystal computing. I wasn't trying to suggest transistor-based machinery - more materials and MechE: the society depends heavily on their artificial lights, the pumps that move air and water, the small handful of machines that provide power (how many geothermal set-ups does one city have? There might not be a lot of redundancy). The guy who figures out how to make a better lightbulb or a high-grade steel that won't succumb to fatigue under the immense strain of the geothermal plants... that guy's a hero!
Oh, I think redundancy should be sufficient.

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It was a response to your comment that which I took to be a compliment.
Ah. Yes, I'm very thankful for your posts. They give me more ideas, and point out the flaws and possible improvements for my ideas.

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What prompts the exit from underground isolation? When I suggested there might be some problems I meant more on the level of a city-wide quirk. If there's not enough UV in the lights everyone will be pasty and will need Vitamin D supplements or they'll get sick. There was a great quote in Firefly to the effect the "every terraformed world has its quirks" - no matter how good you think you've done, over time there's bound to be some little thing that pops up that just has to be endured, because you don't have what you need to fix it and/or there are bigger problems.
Good question. In the original Justicariate timeline, the Justicariate's upper half was a dome with lots of sensors and airlocks, drones were occasionally dispatched outside etc., and the exit was done when it was deemed relatively safe. Here, I'm not sure. Perhaps Friend Computer was programmed never to go to the surface out of safety reasons. The other option is to make some persistent (for 60 years) reason for surfacing to be dangerous. Nukes would do if it were TL7 and a setting with nukes in the tech tree, but it isn't.
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
I don't know how useful this might be but I heard the biosphere thing went wrong because all the shiny new concrete sucked the carbon out of their air.
Abandoned mines seem tempting.
Yeah, I also had that idea - saves a lot of digging.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:27 AM   #26
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

*grins*

Logan 5, you are authorized to break City seals......

:)
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Depends. Part of the population have lower life support needs than humans, and the whole world advances its TL more towards DIY and small-scale production (this is what the old version of the world was supposed to have - new might have something similar).
Doesn't help here. There's really no way to avoid economies of scale on tech advancement, even if you avoid it on manufacturing, unless you have no communication, in which case the likely outcome is tech not advancing at all.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:32 PM   #28
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Default Look up the Greenbriar bunker

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../25/brier1.htm

Apparently in the late 1950s the US Government planned & built a bunker designed to keep Congress & other people alive during & after a nuclear war.

At that time, there were 535 Congressmen & Senators, and they would have needed to house staff, guards, and immediate relatives.

From that website: " . . . Few people have been beyond this door, which can be opened only with a special key card.

When the former government official first entered the facility, he was amazed by what he saw. Along the left side of the wide corridor leading further into the hillside was an infirmary complete with an operating table, then a dormitory with hundreds of metal bunk beds. The mattresses were covered, but the beds were not made. Beside the dormitory was a shower room, complete with wrapped bars of soap in the dishes. "I remember the first time I saw it, especially the dormitory," the former official says. "I had bad dreams that night. It's one of those experiences you don't lightly forget. It scared the [deleted] out of me."

Beyond that room was a television studio from which the legislators would be able to address what was left of the nation. Still further into the compound was a radio and communications room, then a room with phone booths that had been specially soundproofed and fitted with cryptographic machines. To the right of the corridor as one entered the door was a dining room where a number of place settings had been neatly laid out. The walls of the dining room featured false windows complete with wooden frames and country scenes painted on them. The idea, apparently, was that the illusion of being above ground might counter the sense of entombment that could come from a prolonged stay in the facility.

There was also a kitchen and storage area. In the very rear of the compound was a power room, with two diesel generators, standing two stories high, ready to supply all electrical needs. In the same room was a device identified as a "pathological waste incinerator" (translation: an oven for cremations). Once the blast doors were sealed, no one could enter or leave until the crisis had passed. Burial or other disposal of bodies would be impossible, the former official was told.

Beyond the installation, a vehicular tunnel led through the hill and out to the rear of the Greenbrier property, invisible from the road, but convenient to both Route 60 and a railroad line. Supplies for the facility came in through this tunnel, usually at night."

Can give you a start. You would, of course, need independent power sources -- your geothermal would work.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:32 PM   #29
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Default Re: Look up the Greenbriar bunker

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym View Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../25/brier1.htm

Apparently in the late 1950s the US Government planned & built a bunker designed to keep Congress & other people alive during & after a nuclear war.

At that time, there were 535 Congressmen & Senators, and they would have needed to house staff, guards, and immediate relatives.

From that website: " . . . Few people have been beyond this door, which can be opened only with a special key card.

When the former government official first entered the facility, he was amazed by what he saw. Along the left side of the wide corridor leading further into the hillside was an infirmary complete with an operating table, then a dormitory with hundreds of metal bunk beds. The mattresses were covered, but the beds were not made. Beside the dormitory was a shower room, complete with wrapped bars of soap in the dishes. "I remember the first time I saw it, especially the dormitory," the former official says. "I had bad dreams that night. It's one of those experiences you don't lightly forget. It scared the [deleted] out of me."

Beyond that room was a television studio from which the legislators would be able to address what was left of the nation. Still further into the compound was a radio and communications room, then a room with phone booths that had been specially soundproofed and fitted with cryptographic machines. To the right of the corridor as one entered the door was a dining room where a number of place settings had been neatly laid out. The walls of the dining room featured false windows complete with wooden frames and country scenes painted on them. The idea, apparently, was that the illusion of being above ground might counter the sense of entombment that could come from a prolonged stay in the facility.

There was also a kitchen and storage area. In the very rear of the compound was a power room, with two diesel generators, standing two stories high, ready to supply all electrical needs. In the same room was a device identified as a "pathological waste incinerator" (translation: an oven for cremations). Once the blast doors were sealed, no one could enter or leave until the crisis had passed. Burial or other disposal of bodies would be impossible, the former official was told.

Beyond the installation, a vehicular tunnel led through the hill and out to the rear of the Greenbrier property, invisible from the road, but convenient to both Route 60 and a railroad line. Supplies for the facility came in through this tunnel, usually at night."

Can give you a start. You would, of course, need independent power sources -- your geothermal would work.
Definitely the inspiration for the Vaults from Fallout.

Then again, the Vaults were never intended to save anyone (being used for psychological experiments), so that's a major difference.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:56 PM   #30
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Default Re: Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Oh well, then I have to think what kind of developments would be more likely in a city that can't get much of an outside world.
That's why I suggested MechE and materials science - you can use the stuff you've got lying around for inspiration, and since the city is probably dependent on loads of machines (to transmit water and power, to help scrub the air, to deal with waste...) you'll have plenty to look to. On the other hand, unless the city was purposefully built with maximum biodiversity in mind (unlikely for a TL6/7 vault in anything like our timeline - just look at the example given by fredtheobviouspseudonym - sterile, machine-driven, without so much as a fern mentioned), you'll probably be pretty hurting for biological examples. A few crop species, probably, maybe some species optimized for oxygen production, pet species... That's it. No thermophilic bacteria with the enzymes necessary for genetics work, no exotic corals or fungi with advanced antibiotics, no random trees that happen to make potent anti-cancer drugs (c.f. taxol).

Quote:
Oh, I think redundancy should be sufficient.
There'll certainly be redundancy, but things always break down, and someone's got to fix them or replace them. Is the technology the city was buried with indefatigable? If not, improvements on those designs will be valuable to the city directly - unlike early, speculative, biochem research.

Quote:
Good question. In the original Justicariate timeline, the Justicariate's upper half was a dome with lots of sensors and airlocks, drones were occasionally dispatched outside etc., and the exit was done when it was deemed relatively safe. Here, I'm not sure. Perhaps Friend Computer was programmed never to go to the surface out of safety reasons. The other option is to make some persistent (for 60 years) reason for surfacing to be dangerous. Nukes would do if it were TL7 and a setting with nukes in the tech tree, but it isn't.
Chemical or environmental disasters are always good. Maybe extensive strip mining released lethal concentrations of heavy metals into the only major source of ground water for hundreds of miles (possible in an inland setting with one major river system). Or maybe a particularly aggressive war resulted in purposeful poisoning of the land - the conquering armies burned fields and salted the earth (or the TL6 equivalent). Maybe there was a biological catastrophe like a plague that left persistent, infectious debris behind. Just because there aren't nukes doesn't mean there isn't radioactivity - maybe mining for some other metal has resulted in widespread radioactive contamination. The land might appear to be dying, and the people might have no idea why, or what to do about it. It might not be immediately clear how far the damage extends, or how long it'll last, without research into radioactive materials that might not have happened.
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