DF: Still can't challenge the Swashbuckler

[ErhnamDJ]

I agree. It sounds like using the chambara rules is the problem. You've given the swashbuckler an amazing optional rule that's designed to make sword fighters way more awesome. It's no surprise he's more awesome than everyone else!

When I run DF, I limit the character to the default one extra attack from Rapid Strike and the swashbuckler still seems quite powerful. I always have to make sure to challenge his weaknesses: low resistances, lack of out-of-combat skills, and inability to parry heavy attacks.

Give him a combat encounter that requires lots of Will rolls to resist annoyances and enemies using weapons he can't parry, like SM +1 mauls and large shields. Then after the combat give the party some non-combat activities for the cleric and wizard to engage in.

In addition to that awesome optional rule, it sounds like your spellcasters haven't taken advantage of the different spell options very well. If you could post a full list of your caster's spells, we could help you improve those. It might just be the case that they're lacking the system mastery required to use GURPS Magic and the swashbuckler has the easy option of attacking.

[JMason]

Yeah, I think I am going to go back to the just 2 attacks with rapid strike.

As far as spells go, I've given them list and hints, and links to other people's lists, and just about everything that I can think of for them to get some ideas for useful spells, but that hasn't worked out.

Well, I take that back. They have made some improvements. The wizard doesn't particularly like being a wizard (but keeps making them for some reason...).

Here is his full list. Spells with ** are ones that get a lot of use. * have been used a few times, but I not favorites.

Wizard:
Analyze Magic
Continual Light
Create Air
Create Fire
Create Ice
Create Water
Death Vision
Deflect Energy
Destroy Air
Detect Magic
** Explosive Lightning
Extinguish Fire
* Fireproof
* Flame Jet
** Flaming Armor
* Flaming Weapon
Freeze
Glow
Heat
* Ice Slick
Identify Spell
Ignite Fire
Light
** Lightning
Purify Air
Purify Water
Rain of Fire
Resist Fire
Resist Lightning
Seek Earth
Seek Water
Shape Air
Shape Fire
Shape Water
Smoke
Sound
** Spark Storm
Stench
Summon Spirit
** Wall of Lightning
Windstorm

Cleric:
* Armor
Aura
Bless
Command
Cure Disease
* Gift of Letters
Gift of Tongues
** Great Healing
* Lend Energy
** Major Healing
* Might
** Minor Healing
Neutralize Poison
* Purify Air
Purify Water
Recover Energy
* Remove Curse
** See Secrets
** Seeker
Share Vitality
* Shield
Stop Bleeding
Summon Spirit
** Sunbolt
Truthsayer
* Watchdog

[scc]

I think part of your problem might be how little HP the Wizard has judging by quickly he lost almost twice his HP.

That said, I'd say the other mistake you made was having the monsters attack any other then the SB before the SB was down

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by JMason

He has Extra Attack (not DWA), he's turning one of them into a rapid strike. I've never seen anything that implies this isn't allowed.

Yes, he only rolls one deceptive attack per turn, but that is usually enough. With his high skill he often makes this an called shot to the leg or other area to take the monster out even if it isn't killed r!

please, excuse me if these points have already been stated...

If you read the rules for rapid strike carefully, they can only apply to one of your attacks. I used to make this mistake too thinking if I have extra attack I can apply rapid strike to both and get 4 attacks. in reality, you only get 3 attacks with extra attack and rapid strike.


also, have your bad guys have high skill as well and use deceptive attack on your swashbuckler, then his high defense will evaporate.

this is in addition to using suggestions that others have made about giving them armor and using magic on him. some version of a paralyze spell or area of effect mist trap ought to slow him down a little.

I love building swashbucklers, it's one of the first really good builds I learned to make, but then as a gm I had to figure out how to take them apart as well.

ohhh, also, don't forget ranged weapons, can't parry them, and even with that high dodge he has, an Elvin marksman with skill 25 or higher as they are sometimes wont to have will neutralize the dodge nicely (provided they use appropriate levels of deceptive attack). sick a party of Elvin archers on him, or pixies with blow guns with similar skill, he doesn't stand a chance.

[Nereidalbel]

What's his point total now?May be able to find ssomething to challenge him...

[Anders]

My impression is that the trick isn't strictly speaking finding which can challenge the swashbuckler. It's to find something which can challenge the swashbuckler, gives the other characters a place to shine, and doesn't eat the entire party.

[Edges]

The problem seems to be that one character was allowed a force-multiplying optional rule that was meant for a different type of campaign. Now he is a much more efficient killing machine than the rest of the party.

But I don't propose taking away the optional rule. Players don't generally like their toys taken away especially for seemingly arbitrary, meta-game reasons. Instead, I suggest giving the other PCs comparable efficiencies either in the form of Advantages or access to optional rules (be they RAW or house ruled).

I wouldn't do this heavy handedly though. It might make the Swashbuckler feel funny if you just handed out a bunch of good stuff to everyone else. I would gradually work it into the campaign in the form of in-game rewards. Maybe after they defeat a powerful wizard, they get his spellbook and find the secrets to rapid fire spell casting (or whatever). Later another PC gets something groovy and powerful, etc.

Once everyone gets up to the SB's speed (so to speak), then you get to step up the challenge level and let 'er rip.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

please, excuse me if these points have already been stated...

If you read the rules for rapid strike carefully, they can only apply to one of your attacks. I used to make this mistake too thinking if I have extra attack I can apply rapid strike to both and get 4 attacks. in reality, you only get 3 attacks with extra attack and rapid strike.

Right, he is only turning one attack into a rapid strike. The other tends to be a Feint or deceptive attack depending on the situation.

What I WAS doing was allowing the rules from MA for Rapid Strike allow more than two strikes.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

What's his point total now?May be able to find ssomething to challenge him...

320 spent, but he has 30 set aside (he's considering upgrading Ex. Luck to Ridiculous Luck).

Originally Posted by Anders

My impression is that the trick isn't strictly speaking finding which can challenge the swashbuckler. It's to find something which can challenge the swashbuckler, gives the other characters a place to shine, and doesn't eat the entire party.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Edges

The problem seems to be that one character was allowed a force-multiplying optional rule that was meant for a different type of campaign. Now he is a much more efficient killing machine than the rest of the party.

But I don't propose taking away the optional rule. Players don't generally like their toys taken away especially for seemingly arbitrary, meta-game reasons. Instead, I suggest giving the other PCs comparable efficiencies either in the form of Advantages or access to optional rules (be they RAW or house ruled).

I wouldn't do this heavy handedly though. It might make the Swashbuckler feel funny if you just handed out a bunch of good stuff to everyone else. I would gradually work it into the campaign in the form of in-game rewards. Maybe after they defeat a powerful wizard, they get his spellbook and find the secrets to rapid fire spell casting (or whatever). Later another PC gets something groovy and powerful, etc.

Once everyone gets up to the SB's speed (so to speak), then you get to step up the challenge level and let 'er rip.

The cleric is actually coming long. He is a Celestial and the 75 points sunk into the racial template stunted him a bit starting out, but I think that now he is getting to a good place. He can use his morningstar, buff, heal, throw Sunbolt, and has some energy reserve to keep from being tired all the time.

I've talked with the Wizard player about some power ups, such as an irresistible attack (like a Missile of Magic!), but he just doesn't seem interested. I really feel that while he says that he like his character, but doesn't like playing a mage in combat.

I've asked him if he wanted to retire the character and start playing with a new one, but so far he has said no. I think that he feel obligated to "fill the role" for the party.

With the party down two players though, things might change.

[ErhnamDJ]

It seems as though your wizard isn't taking full advantage of the available spell options. Attempting to inflict physical harm on an enemy is by far the least powerful thing a wizard can do and is more easily accomplished, as you've noticed, by attacking the enemy with some sort of weapon.

What I've found to be necessary when building wizards is choosing a few powerful spells--which will have lots of prerequisites--and focusing my list on those.

The individual spell choices made by the wizard will greatly alter how he functions in play. Spells like Force Wall, Create Animal, the various Illusions, the Darkness/Dark Vision combo, Invisible Wizard Eye, Concussion, Body of Water, Ethereal Body, and See Secrets each give you a very different character with his own niche.

I've found it best to cast a spell like Stun or Mental Stun as my combat option. It's cheap both in terms of character points and in energy cost, and it allows you to focus your spell selection on something more impactful.

If your wizard was able to create a Force Wall each combat, and keep each character in a protective Body of Water, while also able to cast Mental Stun at-will, I think he would find himself in a much more powerful position to impact the game. He should be playing up his strengths. He can do things with his magic that even the most advanced technology can't do. Instead he's trying to mimic a man with a stick. I don't think giving him even more attack abilities is the right way to go.

Looking at his spells, his only two useful combat spells are Stench and Smoke. Has he been laying those down to shape the battlefield, or are most enemies immune?

[Pagan]

Why would you let a character with so many advantages now upgrade to Ridiculous Luck? You don't have to do that you know. Just because it is in the book doesn't mean the player is entitled to it. If you don't set limits on characters then generally players will take anything they can whether it unbalances the game or not. Is there some type of justification for him upgrading his luck? Did he get a wish from a genie? Was he blessed by a god? If not, then you probably don't want to add more unbalanced power to an already overpowered character.