Dagger used as main gauche

[phiwum]

A main gauche, if I understand correctly, differs from a dagger by its suitability for parrying. It has a wider guard or other defensive features, justifying its $10 cost more than the dagger.

Seems to me, then, that a fighter could use a dagger as a second weapon without two-handed weapon skill, since he can do so with a main gauche. He wouldn't block any damage but could get a second hit with DX -4.

I don't reckon it's in the RAW but it seems a reasonable conclusion, no? Are there any other differences I'm missing between the two weapons?

[Skarg]

The Main-Gauche weighs more.

I follow the logic of your conclusion given the current rules... but I think the original intent, going back to the original rules, is that there is also a fighting style difference, with tradeoffs... tradeoffs that have been diminished in Legacy edition.

That is, you used to have a choice between:

1) Use the MG for defense only: 1 hit stopped, -1 adjDX.
2) Use to attack and defend, along with another weapon: 1 hit stopped, MG attack at -4, main weapon attack at -4.
3) Don't do anything with the MG. 0 hits stopped, no DX penalty.

In Legacy, we've now got:

1) Use the MG for defense only: 1 hit stopped, -1 adjDX.
2) Use to attack and defend, along with another weapon: 1 hit stopped, MG attack at -5 (total including above), main weapon attack at -1.
3) Don't do anything with the MG. 0 hits stopped, no DX penalty.

So now you're asking, can you avoid the -1 adjDX penalty by doing the same thing with a dagger?

Strictly RAW, I'd say no. You'd use the "other weapons with no Two Weapons talent" rule, which is 0 hits stopped, -6 DX for both attacks.

As a GM ruling, I'd let you do it, but I'd say that using a Dagger loses the 1 hit stopped, but does not avoid the -1 adjDX adjustment, because I think that's about the style of fighting so essentially it gives you a second dagger attack if you take an overall -1 adjDX and the dagger attack is at a further -4 DX.

(My pre-Legacy ruling would be both attacks at -4 DX.)

[larsdangly]

RAW, I think a left handed dagger is just like any other left handed weapon, so you either take the -6/-6 penalty or learn Two Weapons talent or forget about it.

If you wanted to make up a house rule that made a LH dagger more attractive, I think the best approach might be to impose a global -1 DX adjustment (as per the errata for the main gauche), and an additional -4 DX adjustment for the dagger's attack, like a main gauche, but have no armor protection.

[phiwum]

Thanks for your quick replies.

I wasn't really thinking about making a left hand dagger more attractive, by the way. I was just puzzling over what happens when a fencer (say) loses his main gauche. Can he just pick up a dagger and use it?

But that's two votes for "Perhaps as a house rule, but with the -1DX."

[Helborn]

ITL pg 41 under Two Weapons: Any character can fight with two weapons at once – if one of the weapons is a dagger, main-gauche, or spike shield, or if some combination like net-and-trident or two cesti is being used.
Also pg 111 under Left Hand Weapons: The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4 DX.
Neither one requires either the Fencing Talent or the Two Weapons Talent.

But "any character" does not get any of the benefits under either of those talents - all they can do is either attack with both weapons (with the 2nd attack at -4DX) or use the main weapon to attack and the dagger/main-gauche to parry. Note that without a talent, you can't parry with both(?!).

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Helborn

ITL pg 41 under Two Weapons: Any character can fight with two weapons at once – if one of the weapons is a dagger, main-gauche, or spike shield, or if some combination like net-and-trident or two cesti is being used.
Also pg 111 under Left Hand Weapons: The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4 DX.
Neither one requires either the Fencing Talent or the Two Weapons Talent.

But "any character" does not get any of the benefits under either of those talents - all they can do is either attack with both weapons (with the 2nd attack at -4DX) or use the main weapon to attack and the dagger/main-gauche to parry. Note that without a talent, you can't parry with both(?!).

Ah, very good. I think this actually settles it.

Anyone can use a dagger in the left hand for two attacks, with the dagger at -4DX. There is no additional -1DX for this situation.

At least, that's how I read it. To be sure, as I've said a time or two, the mention of the spike shield seems to be in error. The literal interpretation is that anyone with a spike shield and a weapon can attack with the weapon shield rush in the same turn (-4DX for shield rush). I don't think that is intentional (and I also can't believe that were that the correct interpretation, it would apply only for spike shields and not other small shields).

[Skarg]

Two Weapons mentioning spike shield is from the original rules. That ability of Spike Shield was omitted from Legacy rules but didn't get removed from Two Weapons.

In the original rules, a spike shield or a main-gauche could be used for a second attack -4 DX, but it also made your other weapon attack be at -4, too. Legacy dropped that ability of the spike shield.

[larsdangly]

The cited passages dance around a clear ruling but don't really support one. No where in that text is there a statement about how it works if you fight with a left handed dagger that is not, technically, the weapon labeled main gauche. I don't think there is a way to talk ourselves to a RAW understanding; the language is just ambiguous.

Perhaps the best approach is to treat left handed dagger and main gauche as equivalent objects and not pay too much attention to their trivial differences in mass and cost.

[Skarg]

It seems to me though that it does affect the original balance a bit if daggers just grant a free extra attack at -4 DX with zero drawbacks. That starts to give an extra ability to sword over axe/mace, and to a dagger or MG over a small shield, and of one-handed weapons over two-handed weapons, and even to nudge up the value of lower-ST higher-DX melee fighters, etc.

Especially if fine daggers are thought to be readily available.

And with that advantage in place, the majority of original TFT fighters start to look a bit sub-optimal, because very few of them use main-gauche, and only the ones with main-gauche ever mention the extra attack option. But they all have daggers. So instead of a niche option, it may tend to be much more common to have fighters holding daggers trying second attacks as a regular thing.

[Steve Plambeck]

My inclination is to allow anyone with any one-handed weapons in each hand to make 2 attacks, at -4DX to each attack. The penalty gets lessened with Two Weapons talent.

But I'm also inclined to lessen that penalty in some way, say to -3DX each, if the weapons are a fencing sword in one hand and a main-gauche in the other, even without Two Weapons or Fencer talents.

And finally, I'd drop the penalty altogether for a figure making 2 attacks with a fencing sword and main-gauche provided they have the Fencer talent. That doesn't become too unbalancing I think, because the figure has spent 3 points to learn Fencer to master that particular weapon configuration, and they are constrained to using only two light weapons if they want to use the advantage.

Disclaimer: I didn't stop to reread all the relevant RAW first, so that may be straying into the area of house rules.