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Old 11-28-2009, 08:13 PM   #121
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Default Re: High Fantasy advice: Because I hate my GM

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Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
Going from what you quoted me on I'ma assume that you misunderstood what I said; I said that my character would know WHAT made a bow, but more importantly what DEFINITELY did not make a bow. We agreed on Oak because it was hard, AND NEEDED A BIG, HUNGRRRY 20 ST TO PULL IT'S MASSIVE YIELD. But anyway, I meant in-game my character would know what materials were terribly, terribly crap.

To use your example, no, probably with skill 10 a Violin Crafter couldn't Craft a Stratovarius, but he'd definitely know that you don't make Violins out of driftwood.
It's not a question of you making cruddy bows and only cruddy bows. The whole point of your endeavor is to make SuPERIOR bows, to get around a GM restriction against such weapons and their bonuses.

Are you planning on having your character take an extended leave of absence from adventuring to get a reaonalbe work shop and tools and assistants etc or are you planning on making it on theroad when you get a chance?

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Originally Posted by Ubiquitous (Post #1) View Post

I have Armoury: Missile Weapons at skill 10. None of us are too clear on how this works, so here was the math;

Skill of 10. Rolled an 8. Took all night to make this (six hours or so), which gave what I quickly suggested be a +2. So rolled an 8 out of a 12.
Six hours of labor with sub-professional skill (defined in game as 12-) a single success roll equals a +2 bonus equal to that given to a VERY FINE QUALITY bow?

You didn't really take extra time and care in a six hour job. You gave up sleep to do so as well and if anything you're skill is penalized for lack of sleep. Did you spend days seeking out the best materials? Use precision tools under ideal (well lit, for starters) conditions? At skill 10 a character is usually the apprentice who cuts the wood to the master's specified length and sands it to be somewhat smoothe. A Journeyman would do the more detailed rounding and shaping of the bow, and the Master would by overseeing the process and stepping in where needed be how this 4 or 5 feet worth of stick becomes a fine weapon. +1.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:29 PM   #122
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Default Re: High Fantasy advice: Because I hate my GM

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It's not a question of you making cruddy bows and only cruddy bows. The whole point of your endeavor is to make SuPERIOR bows, to get around a GM restriction against such weapons and their bonuses.

Are you planning on having your character take an extended leave of absence from adventuring to get a reaonalbe work shop and tools and assistants etc or are you planning on making it on theroad when you get a chance?
Yeah, except replace 'Extended leave' with 'Extended alone time'.

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Six hours of labor with sub-professional skill (defined in game as 12-) a single success roll equals a +2 bonus equal to that given to a VERY FINE QUALITY bow?

You didn't really take extra time and care in a six hour job. You gave up sleep to do so as well and if anything you're skill is penalized for lack of sleep. Did you spend days seeking out the best materials? Use precision tools under ideal (well lit, for starters) conditions? At skill 10 a character is usually the apprentice who cuts the wood to the master's specified length and sands it to be somewhat smoothe. A Journeyman would do the more detailed rounding and shaping of the bow, and the Master would by overseeing the process and stepping in where needed be how this 4 or 5 feet worth of stick becomes a fine weapon. +1.
I've explained at least three times that I MEANT to be BUILDING IT IN PARTS. I think taking Six hours making nocks in the bow would make some VERY FINE quality nocks. I dunno what those are but they sound like an essential-but-small piece which would require time, like 3 hours, and therefore benefit from the extra work time of six hours. The rest of it would get done in similar exaggerated timespans.

Besides, as I've said, again, maybe a half-dozen times, I didn't know how the Armoury Skill worked at the time. Since Armoury (Body Armor) seemed useful for repairing armor quickly, I figured Armoury (Missile Weapons) meant that building things QUICKLY was the idea and building GOOD things quickly was what sent in penalties, besides tools and situation.

EDIT: Everyone, please, stop putting ACTUAL BOW INFORMATION IN HERE. Yeah, I understand that it takes muuuch more attention to build one in real life, more patience and skill too, I always figured it did, but this isn't that and I find it kinda pretentious. It's GURPS, I'm not gonna roleplay waiting a year for wood to dry and I find it unreasonable for a player to be expected to wait that long, since by the time it was done you either wasted a lot of in-game time or it'd be useless by the time you needed it since a mission/adventure/quest waits for no man, even when he needs that bow.

EDIT: I've gotta learn to make use of all of these Italics an Bold options to emphasize, and quit using my old CAPS policy.

Last edited by Ubiquitous; 11-28-2009 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:50 PM   #123
DouglasCole
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Default Re: High Fantasy advice: Because I hate my GM

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EDIT: Everyone, please, stop putting ACTUAL BOW INFORMATION IN HERE. Yeah, I understand that it takes muuuch more attention to build one in real life, more patience and skill too, I always figured it did, but this isn't that and I find it kinda pretentious. It's GURPS, I'm not gonna roleplay waiting a year for wood to dry and I find it unreasonable for a player to be expected to wait that long, since by the time it was done you either wasted a lot of in-game time or it'd be useless by the time you needed it since a mission/adventure/quest waits for no man, even when he needs that bow.
OK, let me put this in more direct in-game terms, then. Your GM was BANG-ON in denying a skill 10 craftsman a Fine or Very Fine bow in some POS town with only a few hours work.

Even if you take one day as the baseline to make a cheap or regular quality bow with found materials (and my bow books make it seem like both can be done), making it better than this will take lots of skill, time, and good quality materials. Or a big ol' town with access to much better craftsmen than your PC.

As Kromm said, Armorer(bow)-10 is basically a hobbiest. You couldn't make a living with a skill that low.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:57 PM   #124
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OK, let me put this in more direct in-game terms, then. Your GM was BANG-ON in denying a skill 10 craftsman a Fine or Very Fine bow in some POS town with only a few hours work.

Even if you take one day as the baseline to make a cheap or regular quality bow with found materials (and my bow books make it seem like both can be done), making it better than this will take lots of skill, time, and good quality materials. Or a big ol' town with access to much better craftsmen than your PC.

As Kromm said, Armorer(bow)-10 is basically a hobbiest. You couldn't make a living with a skill that low.
And my character DOESN'T make a living like that. I keep saying this; I DIDN'T KNOW THE SKILL WORKED LIKE THAT. YES, OK, I COULDN'T MAKE THAT BOW UNLESS THE PLANETS ALIGNED AND I GOT A CRITICAL SUCCESS AND MAYBE NOT EVEN THEN.

But I DIDN'T know that at the time, and that's why I tried anyway. I thought it was a skill that dictated HOW QUICKLY you made these things, and that a lower skill would require extra-time/good tools/mucho money bonuses. You seem to forget, I never once complained about the skill; I complained about my GM keeping the materials away from me when I was asking for very basic things (strong wood and string). Saying my GM was BANG-ON denying me things that basic...I don't see any logic there unless of course my GM was being, as we said, flat-adversarial.
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:10 PM   #125
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Default Re: High Fantasy advice: Because I hate my GM

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Saying my GM was BANG-ON denying me things that basic...I don't see any logic there unless of course my GM was being, as we said, flat-adversarial.
What I'm trying to tell you is that "strong wood and string" is your INCORRECT impression of what you need. You need more than "strong" wood, you need just the right kind of wood. You also need the right kind of material for the bow-string, possibly high-quality linen or other materials, that are not as simple as "strong wood and string."

You are trying, still, to minimize the difficulty in what you seem to think - and others with, if not more knowledge, at least better reference materials to hand - should be easy, but in fact is definitely NOT so.

Your GM was probably correct to deny you easy access to materials to make a high ST bow (and we're talking something like 160-200lbs draw here for a ST18-20 bow). Finding the wood that won't split, the string that won't break, etc just isn't available on every corner chandlery. In fact, you don't need more than a ST10-12 bow (50-72lbs) to put food on the table, so there's no real reason for some small POS village to have access to materials from which you can make a spring-energy storage device that will only be useful in war.

It's possible your GM was being adversarial, but he was also correct in his judgment that at least at that time and place and with so little effort (one day), you couldn't procure or make what you wanted.

On the other hand, if there were bow-capable trees around (elm, hickory, ash, osage, yew, locust, even maple...but NOT oak) of decent thickness (8-12"), you probably could make a CHEAP ST18-20 bow in that time...assuming you had access to the tools to fell the tree, carve the bow, and make or buy the string. A strong bow is just a matter of a thick limb of proper wood. It won't be as efficient or accurate or as durable as a properly made one, but it probably doesn't have to be.


Edit: there are chapters in my reference work about making bows from green wood. They can be done fast, and will be serviceable. however, no one mentions a bow in the entire book of higher draw than about 80lbs (ST13ish); making a 160-200# pull bow may or may not work with green wood; I'm assuming it CAN be done, but that may not be the case. Icelander may know more...
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:13 PM   #126
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Default Re: High Fantasy advice: Because I hate my GM

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What I'm trying to tell you is that "strong wood and string" is your INCORRECT impression of what you need. You need more than "strong" wood, you need just the right kind of wood. You also need the right kind of material for the bow-string, possibly high-quality linen or other materials, that are not as simple as "strong wood and string."

You are trying, still, to minimize the difficulty in what you seem to think - and others with, if not more knowledge, at least better reference materials to hand - should be easy, but in fact is definitely NOT so.

Your GM was probably correct to deny you easy access to materials to make a high ST bow (and we're talking something like 160-200lbs draw here for a ST18-20 bow). Finding the wood that won't split, the string that won't break, etc just isn't available on every corner chandlery. In fact, you don't need more than a ST10-12 bow (50-72lbs) to put food on the table, so there's no real reason for some small POS village to have access to materials from which you can make a spring-energy storage device that will only be useful in war.

It's possible your GM was being adversarial, but he was also correct in his judgment that at least at that time and place and with so little effort (one day), you couldn't procure or make what you wanted.

On the other hand, if there were bow-capable trees around (elm, hickory, ash, osage, yew, locust, even maple...but NOT oak) of decent thickness (8-12"), you probably could make a CHEAP ST18-20 bow in that time...assuming you had access to the tools to fell the tree, carve the bow, and make or buy the string. A strong bow is just a matter of a thick limb of proper wood. It won't be as efficient or accurate or as durable as a properly made one, but it probably doesn't have to be.
I'll agree on all those points caused by me not knowing what I was talking about/doing, and this is why I posted it here; so people could point that out. But ANOTHER reason I posted it here...instructions how to make a cheap ST-18-20 bow.

What are the rules for Cheap things again?
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