Rank in non-military (space) fleets/(space) navies?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

I remember that, Jellico was a very refreshing character.

I actually did a roleplaying campaign inspired by Star Trek, one where they actually did not have a military force because humanity was united and had no neighbours, that they knew of. They did, however have a Patrol, a spacegoing police force, and that was the PCs. Didn't make much of a difference to the ranks, though, except that they had no "admirals" They had Chiefs and Commissioners.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Unless provisions are made for emergency situations, this fleet is a disaster waiting for its moment to happen. With no centralized authority, no central organizing point, it's going to react to problems clumsily, slowly, and inefficiently at best. At the very least, there needs to be a 'commodore' or the equivalent who can assume fleet command in emergencies. Command by committee is a recipe for a very nasty dish.

This is a plot point in the Lost Fleet series of novels, with the hero of the story basically smacking the other captains upside the head for trying to command a warfleet via democratic processes.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Yeah, but it's during the TNG era that Starfleet started denying that it was a non-military service so I avoid bringing up TOS episodes when this matter comes up. It helps that the TNG era also had court martials.

In the TNG episode 'Peak Performance', Captain Picard said to Sirna Kolrami, "Starfleet is not a military organization." This was the one and only time this was ever said in any Star Trek TV show or movie.

It was obviously yet another example of the culture in the production company and the lame attempt to 'follow Gene's vision' overriding common sense.

Any time I encounter someone who latches on to that one phrase, and ignores the literally dozens of other times in which people in the shows specifically stated that Starfleet is the military, to claim that Starfleet is not a military organization, I simply write that person off as insane and I discontinue speaking with them.

And since I post on the Star Trek Online forums that happens a lot more often that you might think.

[roguebfl]

The best explanation I've heard was in FASA's Star Trek RPG (Cadet's orientation Sourcebook p.14), names Starfleet has multiple branches, and under Star Fleet Operating Forces was: SF Headquarters Command, SF Military Operations Command, SF Galaxy Exploration Command, SF Colonial Operations Command, SF Merchant Marine Command, and SF Marine Corps Command.

Star Fleet Galaxy Exploration Command is what the Show focused on, though Enterprise showed SF Marine Corps Command latter on.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

The best explanation I've heard was in FASA's Star Trek RPG (Cadet's orientation Sourcebook p.14), names Starfleet has multiple branches, and under Star Fleet Operating Forces was: SF Headquarters Command, SF Military Operations Command, SF Galaxy Exploration Command, SF Colonial Operations Command, SF Merchant Marine Command, and SF Marine Corps Command.

Star Fleet Galaxy Exploration Command is what the Show focused on, though Enterprise showed SF Marine Corps Command latter on.

FASAcorp's version of the STTNG world was superior, in almost all respects, to the one the canonical production team finally settled on. It was more consistant with TOS, more logical, and more plausible in terms of organization and politics.

They also did not bother with what came to be known as the Arbitrary Okuda Scale of warp speeds. They instead did something simple and sensible to deal with the desire to make the Enterprise-D faster, they posited a breakthrough in warp tech that caused each warp factor to be equal to the fifth power of the integer rather than the third, so Warp Six went from 216 times c to 7776 c, Warp 9 went from 729c to 59049c, etc.

Simple, effective, and easy to remember. STTNG would have been a superior show if they'd used the FASAcorp backstory materials instead of what they did use.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

The Trek Navy is more like the Victorian Navy in function then it was like Hornblower's Navy. It was already decided who would own the seas. The Victorian Navy did things like policing, local diplomacy, and sometimes geographical surveying. It was in many ways rather like a heavily armed Coast Guard for several generations.

Polite disagreement.

The RN, while very powerful, was never above any concern for other nations' navy. There were repeated scares that the French, the Russians, or both were becoming more than a match for the wooden walls of olde England.

There were war scares in the 1850s (and corresponding military build-ups) and another in the 1870s. While the RN was not fighting any major wars it had to be ready for such at any time. As far as the story that ammunition was tossed overboard rather than risk dirtying the decks by practice, the late D.K. Brown puts paid to that in "From Warrior to Dreadnought."

While the RN fulfilled many roles in the 19th century (and others) it was still primarily a war-fighting organization. Check the spending proportion on capital ships vs. patrol vessels, for example.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

FASAcorp's version of the STTNG world was superior, in almost all respects, to the one the canonical production team finally settled on. It was more consistant with TOS, more logical, and more plausible in terms of organization and politics.

They also did not bother with what came to be known as the Arbitrary Okuda Scale of warp speeds. They instead did something simple and sensible to deal with the desire to make the Enterprise-D faster, they posited a breakthrough in warp tech that caused each warp factor to be equal to the fifth power of the integer rather than the third, so Warp Six went from 216 times c to 7776 c, Warp 9 went from 729c to 59049c, etc.

Simple, effective, and easy to remember. STTNG would have been a superior show if they'd used the FASAcorp backstory materials instead of what they did use.

QFT.

/10char

[VadersFear]

Originally Posted by Sarge

The term "The Service" is used numerous times throughout the shows and movies to refer to Starfleet. Not to mention that in The Wrath of Khan, David Marcus specifically calls Starfleet "The Military."

If I remember correctly, David Marcus was quite a pacifist.
So his exclamation maybe from his point of view.
Not realy fact based. But I digress...

Originally Posted by Sarge

Starfleet uses military ranks, wears uniforms, court-martials its members, enforces martial law, patrols the borders in armed ships, and fights in wars.

Civilian Airlines and Maritime organisations have ranks and uniforms as well and, I don't know how it is today, had the jurisdiction aboard their ships. That included, beside the widely known marital law also martial law.
Still they are not Military. Even border patrol isn't necessarily a job for the military (see US border patrol, which is a police operation and thus falls into the civilian domain).

By the way, does mercenary personal count as military or civilian?


Before I hijack this any further:
Even in Civilian navies there are ranks, which count for the ship in service only. The captain will be the pivot in ships operation. Everyone will probably answer to him first. He is the tip of the iceberg, if I may say so.

Maybe ranks can be named a bit different in a civilian navy...
And where the captain comes from, science, economy doesn't matter.
But I think there has to be a hierarchy, a chain of command.
In the end, every captain is responsible for his ship and if there is a pseudo democracy among the ships, one will take command in an emergency. That's the way it normally works in real life. One will take command, the others will follow. Well, most of them, anyway.

If there are "warriors" on other, armed ships I would count them as militia or as a police force. But even a military unit is totally feasible since in peace time the military probably answers to the civilian authorities (depending on your background of course).

[Apache]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

Civilian Airlines and Maritime organisations have ranks and uniforms as well and, I don't know how it is today, had the jurisdiction aboard their ships. That included, beside the widely known marital law also martial law. Still they are not Military. Even border patrol isn't necessarily a job for the military (see US border patrol, which is a police operation and thus falls into the civilian domain).

Civilian airlines and Merchant Maritime organizations do not operate heavily armed aircraft/vehicles, nor do they fight wars. Starfleet does.

Also, regarding 'border patrols', until recently (with the formation of the US Border Patrol), the US Army routinely conducted border patrols, and (occasionally) still does today. Sea borders are patrolled by the US Coast Guard, which is a branch of the US Armed Forces. The US Air Force monitors air traffic lanes and responds to unauthorized aircraft crossing the border.

Most other countries also use their military for border operations.

Originally Posted by VadersFear

By the way, does mercenary personal count as military or civilian?

Depends. Are they shooting at you or not?

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by VadersFear

Civilian Airlines and Maritime organisations have ranks and uniforms as well and, I don't know how it is today, had the jurisdiction aboard their ships. That included, beside the widely known marital law also martial law.

If by 'marital law' you're referring to ship captains being empowered to perform marriages, that's a myth. However, it's such a widespread myth that some have done so, and some courts adhere to the principle that if two people honestly believe that they're married, they are. In fact, the myth is so pervasive that instruction books for captains (whatever they're called) point out that captains are not empowered to perform marriages qua their office.

Check The Straight Dope for more details.

Things may be different in the OP's campaign world, of course.



Hans