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Old 11-29-2010, 01:21 PM   #21
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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Originally Posted by cccwebs View Post
In a "fleet" setting, you'll probably want to include at least one Hangar Bay in every large craft. Transferring cargo would be considerably safer from internally docked ships vs "tubes" connecting ships externally.
Yes, but that's an extra strain on the already limited amount of free space in ships.

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Sounds about right, though 'population' ships might want to include at least 1 fabricator system to help with essentials.
A replicator without at least one Cargo Hold is not very useful. All that leaves very little space for Habitat systems. At this point, 'population' ships start looking more like corporate mining towns, making them almost the same thing as the industrial ships of the fleet.

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Mobile shipyards for a fleet would be limited in the size of ships they could construct. Unless setting up 'camp' for a while, any ships built should be able to fit inside (no larger than what can fit in the hangar bay). If a larger ship is needed, then the fleet would need to 'camp' for the duration of construction.
When the fleet is not experiencing acceleration, I see no reason why a mobile shipyard can't function. The problem seems to be that the math of constructing ships outside of hangars in G:SS is unplayable, and arguably silly (price doesn't match the expenses needed to actually build the ship).

Such a fleet, if it's capable of reproducing its flagship(s) and/or mobile shipyards, must be able to construct things that don't fit into hangars. When I said shipyard, I envisioned something closer to a wharf that only partially surrounds the ship under construction.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Yes, but that's an extra strain on the already limited amount of free space in ships.
If you don't need a big one for big parasite craft, just use a 1/3 size hangar.

Also, if you're worried about space, you might ask whether you need a full-size power plant. Very few civilian systems need power.
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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
When the fleet is not experiencing acceleration, I see no reason why a mobile shipyard can't function. The problem seems to be that the math of constructing ships outside of hangars in G:SS is unplayable, and arguably silly (price doesn't match the expenses needed to actually build the ship).
I'm actually not sure there's anything wrong with the outside work costs, except what's already wrong with the costs for building ships that fit in hangars but can't be built wholly inside the factory.
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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Such a fleet, if it's capable of reproducing its flagship(s) and/or mobile shipyards, must be able to construct things that don't fit into hangars. When I said shipyard, I envisioned something closer to a wharf that only partially surrounds the ship under construction.
I'd guess that for work in space, that would be almost nothing. Just a few cables for safety lines, and maybe a couple light girders with rails. Given the time and resource scales involved, you can probably just say it takes something like a day to set up and take down unless you really need details for some reason.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:58 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you don't need a big one for big parasite craft, just use a 1/3 size hangar.
Good point.

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Also, if you're worried about space, you might ask whether you need a full-size power plant. Very few civilian systems need power.
I wouldn't be so sure. STL and/or FTL drives are traditionally high-energy systems.

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I'm actually not sure there's anything wrong with the outside work costs, except what's already wrong with the costs for building ships that fit in hangars but can't be built wholly inside the factory.
Might be the same thing - point is I remember several threads about cost inconsistencies.

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I'd guess that for work in space, that would be almost nothing. Just a few cables for safety lines, and maybe a couple light girders with rails. Given the time and resource scales involved, you can probably just say it takes something like a day to set up and take down unless you really need details for some reason.
Hmmm.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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The concept of a nomadic fleet with extremely large resupply needs doesn't make sense. If it's a lot of time and trouble to move, then people will rarely move.
Well, we're assuming FTL. My typical preference is FTL for in between systems, reaction drives for inside systems. But your point only stands if resources are scarce. While this is true in between stars to some extent, most star systems should have fairly copious quantities of volatiles in the form of asteroids and comets. Especially if you've got a mining/refinery ship to turn whatever you find into whatever your engines use, it's not like you usually run into resource scarcities. But if it's dramatically interesting, you CAN find local scarcities. Actually one of the main reasons you want lots of smaller ships instead of a single big ship is when your resources are scattered around in multiple places.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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The concept of a nomadic fleet with extremely large resupply needs doesn't make sense. If it's a lot of time and trouble to move, then people will rarely move.
It's hard to see the fleet doing much in-system exploration with chemical rockets. And using fission power is going to be tricky: I could see it taking years to set up a proper fissile mining and extraction industry, for each new system you visit. So there are really two possibilities:

1. A solar-powered fleet that spends most of its time huddled close to stars, using solar-powered ion drives or sails for in-system propulsion.

2. A fusion-powered fleet, if you have that technology. Then your fuel supply becomes only a minor concern: any system will have a reservoir of comets or icy moons to supply you with hydrogen.

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Old 11-29-2010, 03:15 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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Well, we're assuming FTL. My typical preference is FTL for in between systems, reaction drives for inside systems. But your point only stands if resources are scarce.
The amount of time you have to spend on gathering and extracting resources also matters, and the resources you have to expend in gathering more resources as well. Of course what makes sense if the FTL drive requires no reaction mass but STL manuevering does is to simply park the fleet in whatever safe orbit it comes out in and don't move it at all. All interaction with the system is via smaller shuttles while the main habitation and industrial ships drift being too much mass to shift.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I wouldn't be so sure. STL and/or FTL drives are traditionally high-energy systems.
True, if you're using reactionless STL drives. (And usually true for FTL.)

If you're reactionless, though, you won't need much fuel tankage.

So the necessary systems for a universal ship would be:
3x armor (you could do 3/2 or 3/3 armor, but it might be a bad idea.)
1x habitat (More than enough room for the ship's crew)
1x open space
1x factory
1x stardrive
1/2 fusion reactor (or 1 fission)
1/3 control room
1/3 reactionless drive
1/3 hangar
1/3 refinery

I've filled at most 9 and a third systems here. More than half the ship is left to be filled with fuel tanks, cargo stores, more of the aforementioned systems, and whatever else you see a need for. Actually, the open space is optional...you could also go Total Life Support on the cabins, and you'd still have more cabins than workspaces.
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

A couple of things to ponder:

At TL9, without a lot of superscience, nomad fleets traveling between the stars is very difficult unless they are going from point A to point B without stopping or changing course... in which case you really have a colony convoy.

However, if you scale back the transit to just the kuiper belt/oort cloud, you can have Nomad fleets without even going superscience. Ships will need to be big (SM 10+) to utalize Fusion Plants, allowing comets and icy bodies to be used as fuel.

------------

Additionally, if the fleet can reach relativistic speeds, then time dialation can become a tool rather than a hindrence.

----------

Another way to do a fleet is to base the fleet on giant "motherships", that are primarily fuel & engine. The other ships are carried/docked with the tanker, they can seperate for missions when needed.

---------

But before I can give ideas on PC roles, or more specific ideas on how the fleet works, I need to know Why they are nomadic in the first place.
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

If using reactionless thrusters, then the possibilities of specialized ships becomes much more likely. Sure, most ships will have some basic level of redundancy (open spaces for food production, fabricators for parts, etc) but with reactionless thrusters the need for a spacecraft being mostly a big fuel tank with some additional attachments is gone.


Other considerations: (remaining in the limited superscience)
Gravity is a pain. Per Spaceships, the unstreamlined vessel must be a minimum of SM +14 in order to have a 1G spin gravity. This will significantly restrict the sizes of habitable ships (any ship designed for long term occupancy) if using a species adapted for life in 1G.
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Old 11-29-2010, 05:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Space/Spaceships] TL9 nomad fleet - playable?

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Originally Posted by Trachmyr View Post
A couple of things to ponder:


Additionally, if the fleet can reach relativistic speeds, then time dialation can become a tool rather than a hindrence.
Reaction drives can't do that. Not enough delta-v
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