Rank in non-military (space) fleets/(space) navies? - Page 5

Sarge · 12-27-2010, 02:03 PM

First of all, it doesn't matter and has absolutely no bearing on this conversation whether or not non-military organizations have uniforms and use ranks.

People that work at McDonalds wear uniforms too, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Starfleet personnel have been shown in more than one episode enforcing martial law. Martial law is a specific situation in which law and order is being enforced by the military.

Also Starfleet fights in wars. In officially declared wars. That, in conjunction with their official status, ranks, uniforms, training and equipment - like armed warships - makes them the military.

Seriously guys, they are a uniformed service that has military ranks, has armed ships with military designations (Enterprise was called a Heavy Cruiser, that's not exactly a civilian designation is it?) and they fight in wars. How can anyone even attempt to make an argument that they're not a military organization with a straight face?

cosmicfish · 12-27-2010, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge

How can anyone even attempt to make an argument that they're not a military organization with a straight face?

Mostly by covering their eyes, sticking their fingers in their ears, and yealling "NANANANANANA" at the top of their voice.

Seriously though, the basic premise behind Star Trek was worked and reworked so many times by so many different people that some major errors and contradictions just got embedded by accident. The whole military / non-military is one of them, as is the curious case of enlisted personnel (a relic from Roddenberry's original idea of a NASA-like organization with all-officer personnel and a 5-10 man crew).

Those who say that Starfleet is non-military say so because at various times prominent characters or writers have said "Starfleet is not military" and they swallowed it even though it makes no sense whatsoever.

Hans Rancke-Madsen · 12-27-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge

Seriously guys, they are a uniformed service that has military ranks, has armed ships with military designations (Enterprise was called a Heavy Cruiser, that's not exactly a civilian designation is it?) and they fight in wars. How can anyone even attempt to make an argument that they're not a military organization with a straight face?

Well, you see, they all members of the Volunteer Reser... <<phfft>>

No, you're right. Can't be done.

Hans

cosmicfish · 12-27-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VadersFear

Civilian Airlines and Maritime organisations have ranks and uniforms as well and, I don't know how it is today, had the jurisdiction aboard their ships. That included, beside the widely known marital law also martial law.
Still they are not Military. Even border patrol isn't necessarily a job for the military (see US border patrol, which is a police operation and thus falls into the civilian domain).

Uniforms and ranks are secondary characteristics of a military, not primary. The primary characteristic of a military is that it is the primary instrument in fighting wars. Civlian airlines don't drop bombs, maritime organizations don't torpedo ships, police forces don't establish beachheads, and the border patrol doesn't hold off armored divisions.

Conversely, most militaries DO perform other functions. The US Navy has hospital ships that primarily work in disaster relief and third-world aid when there are no major battles going on. Many militaries operate survey and reconnaissance groups that not only detail invasion routes but also map great portions of the world. A great deal of scientific research is performed by military groups, research with military AND civilian applications. Even diplomatic transport is typical (for example, the President of the United States is transported in the air exclusively by special wings of the Air Force and Marine Corps).

cosmicfish · 12-27-2010, 05:00 PM

For the structure of the fleet, there is unlikely to be a formal structure with named ranks, and any such structures would likely be unique to each ship. In general, however, there are three different structures you need to consider:

1) Ship organization. The ship is commanded by a Captain, who will have a staff on all but the smallest ships (a secretary, or a hundred people depending on ship size). The rest of the ship is divided into Departments, each with a specific function (Astrogation, Command, Engineering, Supply, Weapons) and an officer in charge (The Captain is directly in charge of the Command Department, in addition to commanding the other Departments indirectly). On any ship with more than ~100 crew most of the Departments will probably be divided into Divisions, again with specific functions (Weapons: Main Battery, Defensive Armaments, Torpedos). The composition and size of each Department and Division will vary with the size of the ship and its role - a survey ship will have a large Astrogation Department, a military vessel a large Weapons Department.

If you need to assign actual rank numbers, I would consider using a factor of 5-10 subordinates per level. So a Captain of a ship with 25-100 crew is probably only rank 2 (with his/her Department heads and XO at rank 1), and all Captains would not be the same rank - the Department heads on large ships will equal or outrank the Captains of smaller vessels. This makes a lot of real world sense - who has more authority and power, the Captain of a 1000-man Cruise ship, or the Captain of a 10-man fishing trawler? You can bump these up a level or two to allow for any differentiation between officers and ordinary starmen, or between different types of crew, but this depends a lot on the character of your campaign.

2) Ship command hierarchy. In civilian AND military ships, there is a precisely defined hierarchy for who commands the ship (assuming that those higher up are dead or incapable of command). This is what First Officer, Second Officer, etc. actually means (although the 1st Officer is 2nd in command, and so on). On small ships, this will be divided between other jobs - the Chief Astrogator might ALSO be the Second Officer - while on larger ships some of these will be distinct positions in the Command Department, with responsibility for internal organization and off-shift command. Only the smallest of ships will lack a full-time, no-other-job Executive Officer, if only so that someone is in charge while the Captain sleeps.

None of this actually affects point totals, except that these officers will usually be the highest ranking in part 1 - in non-military organizations, Division heads will not generally place higher in the hierarchy than any Department heads. Military organizations are an exception because not all officers are considered fit to command in combat, and in some cases the same may be true in civilian organizations (perhaps command "requires" astrogation knowledge, so the command hierarchy is limited to the Astrogation department, from which the Captain and XO are drawn).

3) Fleet organization. This is almost non-existent in your case, but the ships may agree to some idea of who is in charge under which circumstances. For example, you list military ships - are those Captains in charge during an attack? The traditional title for the person in charge of the ships is Commodore, but Fleet Captain, Senior Captain, First Captain, are also acceptable, as is no title at all.

12-27-2010, 02:03 PM	#41
Sarge Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Rank in non-military (space) fleets/(space) navies? First of all, it doesn't matter and has absolutely no bearing on this conversation whether or not non-military organizations have uniforms and use ranks. People that work at McDonalds wear uniforms too, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Starfleet personnel have been shown in more than one episode enforcing martial law. Martial law is a specific situation in which law and order is being enforced by the military. Also Starfleet fights in wars. In officially declared wars. That, in conjunction with their official status, ranks, uniforms, training and equipment - like armed warships - makes them the military. Seriously guys, they are a uniformed service that has military ranks, has armed ships with military designations (Enterprise was called a Heavy Cruiser, that's not exactly a civilian designation is it?) and they fight in wars. How can anyone even attempt to make an argument that they're not a military organization with a straight face? __________________ " ... that this nation shall not perish from the Earth."

12-27-2010, 05:00 PM	#45
cosmicfish Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Rank in non-military (space) fleets/(space) navies? For the structure of the fleet, there is unlikely to be a formal structure with named ranks, and any such structures would likely be unique to each ship. In general, however, there are three different structures you need to consider: 1) Ship organization. The ship is commanded by a Captain, who will have a staff on all but the smallest ships (a secretary, or a hundred people depending on ship size). The rest of the ship is divided into Departments, each with a specific function (Astrogation, Command, Engineering, Supply, Weapons) and an officer in charge (The Captain is directly in charge of the Command Department, in addition to commanding the other Departments indirectly). On any ship with more than ~100 crew most of the Departments will probably be divided into Divisions, again with specific functions (Weapons: Main Battery, Defensive Armaments, Torpedos). The composition and size of each Department and Division will vary with the size of the ship and its role - a survey ship will have a large Astrogation Department, a military vessel a large Weapons Department. If you need to assign actual rank numbers, I would consider using a factor of 5-10 subordinates per level. So a Captain of a ship with 25-100 crew is probably only rank 2 (with his/her Department heads and XO at rank 1), and all Captains would not be the same rank - the Department heads on large ships will equal or outrank the Captains of smaller vessels. This makes a lot of real world sense - who has more authority and power, the Captain of a 1000-man Cruise ship, or the Captain of a 10-man fishing trawler? You can bump these up a level or two to allow for any differentiation between officers and ordinary starmen, or between different types of crew, but this depends a lot on the character of your campaign. 2) Ship command hierarchy. In civilian AND military ships, there is a precisely defined hierarchy for who commands the ship (assuming that those higher up are dead or incapable of command). This is what First Officer, Second Officer, etc. actually means (although the 1st Officer is 2nd in command, and so on). On small ships, this will be divided between other jobs - the Chief Astrogator might ALSO be the Second Officer - while on larger ships some of these will be distinct positions in the Command Department, with responsibility for internal organization and off-shift command. Only the smallest of ships will lack a full-time, no-other-job Executive Officer, if only so that someone is in charge while the Captain sleeps. None of this actually affects point totals, except that these officers will usually be the highest ranking in part 1 - in non-military organizations, Division heads will not generally place higher in the hierarchy than any Department heads. Military organizations are an exception because not all officers are considered fit to command in combat, and in some cases the same may be true in civilian organizations (perhaps command "requires" astrogation knowledge, so the command hierarchy is limited to the Astrogation department, from which the Captain and XO are drawn). 3) Fleet organization. This is almost non-existent in your case, but the ships may agree to some idea of who is in charge under which circumstances. For example, you list military ships - are those Captains in charge during an attack? The traditional title for the person in charge of the ships is Commodore, but Fleet Captain, Senior Captain, First Captain, are also acceptable, as is no title at all.