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Old 07-21-2018, 09:01 PM   #11
tomc
 
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Steve, everyone.
I'm fine with this. Generally, I prefer talents that do one thing, than grab bag talents that do a lot of different things.
Either can be good for me. What I really appreciate is new talents that don't require much in the way of new rules. These are about right.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:05 PM   #12
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

I really like this breakdown. Those are all different abilities.

Do we also get a talent for Deception? [howitzer]Maybe a level 2 Masterful Deception? Manipulator? Master Manipulator?[/howitzer]

It seemed off that ITL Thief required pickpocketing and lockpicking to be learned together. Not to mention the Master level also including lying and a language.

I don't agree with Ty that it's good to anticipate PCs always wanting to learn both. In my original TFT campaign, a warrior/adventurer PC went to the Thieves' Guild and learned Thief without really being a Thief - he tried to train his pet Slinker to pick locks, but I don't remember him pickpocketing anyone (I think he mainly wanted to pass as a thief to get the Thieves Guild to teach him Detect Traps, and before long he had the Wizard's Guild telepathically erase the Thief talent).
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

Agree that this should be split up, and that looks like a logical way of doing it.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:12 AM   #14
ak_aramis
 
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
I actually wrote a line about the Locksmiths' Guild and then erased it because of word count creep. Yes, in all but the largest cities the Locksmiths would be a SIG, so to speak, under the Mechanicians.

If the Thieves' Guild were really an organized thing, they would probably have an annual contest with the Locksmiths!
Thieves guilds are not a fantasy creation; the name may be, tho'. Organized crime well predates the mafia. Pickpockets/cutpurses were often well organized gangs; it really helps to have partners in such crimes.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:26 AM   #15
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

"Thieves' cant" (a private language used by thieves; many of their slang words are now commonly accepted by proper English) was in vogue long before the Napoleonic Wars in England -- and had probably been in use for at least a century or two by then, along with recognition signs among thieves (at least in Western Europe).

A "secret" language sort of indicates a certain level of organization, I'd say...
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:42 AM   #16
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
One way to do it: substitute for Thief and Master Thief:

Locksmith (1). Ability to open locks. Requires specialized tools which have no significant weight. To pick an ordinary lock, roll 3 dice vs. DX; you may try once per minute until you succeed. This skill is of less use against magically locked doors (see Doors, p. 00), and some locks require more than 3 dice to pick. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild. But there are legitimate locksmiths too.
The GM may let non-Thief characters try to pick very simple locks, at a penalty of one or more dice.

Pickpocket (1): Roll 3 dice vs. DX to pick a pocket or steal a purse; failure means you’re noticed. Roll only 2 dice if some distraction is arranged to fool your victim. Pickpocketing with subtlety is hard and unskilled rolls should not be allowed. The Thieves’ Guild teaches this talent; see Thieves’ Guild.

Master Locksmith (1). Prerequisites: Locksmith talent and DX 13 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any lock. This talent may be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Master Pickpocket (1). Prerequisites: Pickpocket talent and DX 14 or better. You roll 1 fewer dice to pick any pocket. This talent must be learned from the Thieves’ Guild (q.v.).

Streetwise (1): Knowledge of the local underworld and the Thieves’ Argot, the secret slang of thieves. Roll vs. IQ to find fences, smugglers, or other criminal businessmen, or to “blend in” in a dive bar or the like, even in a strange town.
I like these but I don't like "you may try once per minute until you succeed." I just made a thread for what I do instead of that. Also, as someone who has picked a lot of locks (er... in college, OK?) I have to say that influenced my post. Rolling once per minute doesn't capture the experience as well as the technique I post about IMO despite the fact that my technique uses only one roll.
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Old 07-22-2018, 05:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

I'm curious about the IQ required for these Thief talents, but the idea of splitting them up seems to make sense.
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Last edited by flankspeed; 07-22-2018 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 07-22-2018, 05:58 AM   #18
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

I prefer this change, and in fact I've used something similar when a player generated a non-Thief Mechanician and wanted to be able to open locks. The Mechanician's Guild, among others, should be teaching Locksmithing.

It's always bothered me that Knock is so powerful compared with Thief. It makes a bit of a mockery of the locksmithing skill set, that it's uniformly inferior to just one of the tools in the Swiss Army Knife that is wizardry. I'd be happier with something like:
  • A Lock spell applied to a lockless door imakes a standard difficulty problem of 3 dice for a thief, or maybe 2 dice for a thief and 3 for a non-thief.
  • A Lock spell applied to a door already locked increases the lockpick difficulty by 1 die.
  • A Knock spell makes something easier by as much as the Lock makes it harder, for as long as the Knock lasts (say, a minute).
  • If the action of a Knock spell makes the lockpick difficulty go below the minimum (whatever that is) the door springs open.
  • There could by stronger Lock and Knock spells at higher IQ.
  • Probably just one spell per lock.
Maybe not exactly that, but something like it.
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Old 07-22-2018, 07:51 AM   #19
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
... It's always bothered me that Knock is so powerful compared with Thief. It makes a bit of a mockery of the locksmithing skill set, that it's uniformly inferior to just one of the tools in the Swiss Army Knife that is wizardry. I'd be happier with something like: ...

Maybe not exactly that, but something like it.
Hi David, I agree.
The Codex talked a bit about the problem, but it remains in old TFT for most campaigns. I agree it can use some thought.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:06 AM   #20
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Splitting up the Thief talent

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
"Thieves' cant" (a private language used by thieves; many of their slang words are now commonly accepted by proper English) was in vogue long before the Napoleonic Wars in England -- and had probably been in use for at least a century or two by then, along with recognition signs among thieves (at least in Western Europe).

A "secret" language sort of indicates a certain level of organization, I'd say...
[joke] (And everyone who knows it is DX 14 and can pick locks and pockets and lie really well.) [/joke]
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