How to price armor piercing talons?

[Bathawk]

I have a supers character with ST: 38 (4d thrust; 6d +2 swing) With Claws (Talons) that allow him to do thrust impaling or swing cutting damage

Now if I want to have those attacks be armor piercing, I currently am applying the +50% enhancement to an existing 4d impaling attack (16 points)...but what about the 6d +2 cutting? do I apply the armor piercing the same way, or is there more of a costs break because I already bought it for the impaling attack (I ask because there is an enhancement that allows me change an innate attack from cutting to impaling on the same attack)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Bathawk

is there more of a costs break because I already bought it for the impaling attack )

That would be Alternative Attacks though you'd need to base it on the more expensive attack not whichever you bought first..

[Paydalanw]

You usually can't use swing for attack with claws.
It's limited to thr cut and thr imp (decide before attack), so just pay for mode you prefer, if you want both pay full price for most expensive and 1/5 for other as Alternate Ability, or full price for both if you plan to use imp and cut modes on same turn

[Bathawk]

Originally Posted by Paydalanw

You usually can't use swing for attack with claws.
It's limited to thr cut and thr imp (decide before attack), so just pay for mode you prefer, if you want both pay full price for most expensive and 1/5 for other as Alternate Ability, or full price for both if you plan to use imp and cut modes on same turn

Ah, good catch. I guess I just always assume cutting attacks are a result of swing damage

[sir_pudding]

Talons (p.B43) do thr cut or thr imp, and you decide before you attack.

Armor Divisor is an Attack Modifier, and RAW doesn't seem to be actually allowed on Talons.

So if you are using Modifed ST-based damage (Powers 146), or Modifying Existing Damage, Power Ups 4: Enhancements p.9, you would just modify your 4d thr based damage with Armor Divisor (2) (Claws Only -60%) +20% for 4 points.

Then you take the AD enhancement on Talons which costs 4 points. So it costs a net 8 points.

[Bathawk]

understood, though the -60% is a bit much, maybe if the claws were on one hand, but having at least two arms with claws I would probably price it at -40%, I would use the -60% for one specific strike....like an "Iron Fist" punch, on maneuver like a flying jump kick, or an exceptional bite

[Varyon]

You might also consider using "Natural Weapons" from Pyramid #3/65. That's a system that essentially lets you build your own variants of Claws and Strikers (including allowing for things like Burning and Fatigue Damage), and it has the benefit of not calling for using the whole Modifying ST-Based Damage complications (you can just modify the base Advantage). For your thr imp / sw cut talons, you'd be looking at something like (going off memory here, so I could be misremembering the modifiers): Impaling Weapon (Armor Divisor +50%; Extra Damage Type, cut +20%; Swing-Only, cut +30%) [16]. For your ST 38 character, that means 4d(2) imp / 6d+2(2) cut.

[Edris]

Originally Posted by Bathawk

understood, though the -60% is a bit much, maybe if the claws were on one hand, but having at least two arms with claws I would probably price it at -40%, I would use the -60% for one specific strike....like an "Iron Fist" punch, on maneuver like a flying jump kick, or an exceptional bite

I'd say it's not too far out of line; consider that One Attack Only on Striking ST is also -60% (Powers, p78-79). It states one specific natural attack, of which claws (plural) is a part of in it's own example.

Also echoing the sentiment Natural Weapons pyramid mentioned previously, it's quite a good article for building attacks, it even lets you get your swing version in, if you'd like.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Paydalanw

You usually can't use swing for attack with claws.
It's limited to thr cut and thr imp (decide before attack), so just pay for mode you prefer, if you want both pay full price for most expensive and 1/5 for other as Alternate Ability, or full price for both if you plan to use imp and cut modes on same turn

Alternate Attacks do not have that problem, so any Ability purchased as an Attack may be switched between as a part of attacking.

[Bathawk]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Alternate Attacks do not have that problem, so any Ability purchased as an Attack may be switched between as a part of attacking.

Well to be fair, you can only use one "mode" of an alternative attack per turn...if you have multiple hand to hand attacks (Altered Time Rate, Rapid Strike, or just buying "extra attacks") and want one of the attack to be impaling and the other cutting, then yes, they would have to be bought seperately