[Space/Thaumatology] Stargate: Fantasy - Worldbuilding thread

[ericthered]

I think #3 is best... but I'll also vote for #1.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Varyon

(although I'll note a lot of modern stuff is still steampowered - fission plants are basically just steam engines, but using a critical mass of uranium or similar to produce the heat instead of wood/coal/coke) - they'll have to build up enough trust to be able to analyze the guts before they can determine it's "impossible."

Well I'd argue that the main difference between Steampunk and regular tech is Steampunk tech uses the steam directly, rather than just using it to generate electricity. This in turn means that the places where energy is used need to be relatively close to where the reactors/burners/etc are. Thus the question is, "Which bits can be inobvious magitek?"

Maybe they could have access to some kind of metal or something (maybe magic magma?) that melts and flows easily, and radiates heat slowly to get the energy from the burners to the engines.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Well I'd argue that the main difference between Steampunk and regular tech is Steampunk tech uses the steam directly, rather than just using it to generate electricity. This in turn means that the places where energy is used need to be relatively close to where the reactors/burners/etc are. Thus the question is, "Which bits can be inobvious magitek?"

Maybe they could have access to some kind of metal or something (maybe magic magma?) that melts and flows easily, and radiates heat slowly to get the energy from the burners to the engines.

It may be that all of their advanced tech is large, such that having an internal boiler isn't a big deal. Perhaps the dvergar primarily sell raw materials and mundane items (as well as advanced technology from other peoples), and use steam power for their mining equipment and vehicles, in their workshops, etc. If they need portable power, I've always felt clockwork meshes well with steampunk - perhaps they have advanced clockwork batteries (typically recharged - or, rather, wound - by steam power) when they need a small bit of powered gear. Or they just always expect to have relatively-close access to steam - maybe dvergar cities are filled with pipes full of high-pressure steam (replenished by boilers spread throughout the city), such that any time you need power you can just tap into one and use its steam. IIRC, Caldera in the Free Wrench series did something similar (it also used clockwork batteries for cases where tapping into the steam pipe network was impractical, like for small vehicles).

[TGLS]

Honestly my main concern with boilers everywhere is that implies smokestacks everywhere, which doesn't mesh great with the classical Dwarven "city in the mountain"

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Honestly my main concern with boilers everywhere is that implies smokestacks everywhere, which doesn't mesh great with the classical Dwarven "city in the mountain"

Caldera gets the heat for its boilers from the fact that, as the name implies, it's located on a dormant volcano. Dvergar could potentially do the same, utilizing geothermal energy (or maybe SGC assumes they're using geothermal, when they're actually using magic), which would mean little smoke. But honestly, smoke should be surmountable - maybe they have the smoke diverted into cleverly-designed vents throughout the mountain and connecting to the outside (which they'll need in some fashion to get proper ventilation anyway), ultimately resulting in a "misty mountain" of sorts.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Honestly my main concern with boilers everywhere is that implies smokestacks everywhere,n"

Not with magic it doesn't.

Create Fire doesn't make huge amounts of smoke and with the right translation "Eternal Fire Spheres" become "plasma containment units" and the Carter expy starts thinking up technobabble about "zero point energy producing plasma that is then harvested to provide power for the Dvergar civilization.".

Another key element for Steampunk is gleaming "brass" everywhere. We know it's Orichalcum while the SG-1 scientists are making notes about "extremely advanced copper alloys".

Diverging at TL5 makes stuff just enough like technology to hide the Magic for a while longer.

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Not with magic it doesn't.

Create Fire doesn't make huge amounts of smoke and with the right translation "Eternal Fire Spheres" become "plasma containment units" and the Carter expy starts thinking up technobabble about "zero point energy producing plasma that is then harvested to provide power for the Dvergar civilization.".

Well maybe if the Terrans are being a bit obtuse or the Dwarves are being deliberately misleading. If someone's doing something obviously impossible based on current science, and their answer to, "How does you're fire sphere work?" is "Magic." and "Where does it draw energy from?" is "The mana field." Getting to "Magic exists" isn't hard.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Well maybe if the Terrans are being a bit obtuse or the Dwarves are being deliberately misleading. If someone's doing something obviously impossible based on current science, and their answer to, "How does you're fire sphere work?" is "Magic." .

The word will be in the dvergar language and Earth scientists won't translate it as "magic.

When you start translating things it's a short leap from "Magic" as "arts of wise men" (like the Bible's Three Wise Men who were probably Persian Magi) to "Science" which comes from "Knowledge".

The dvergar term could probably be translated as either but there will be a long strange trip before Earth Scientists choose the "magic" version of the word.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Well maybe if the Terrans are being a bit obtuse or the Dwarves are being deliberately misleading. If someone's doing something obviously impossible based on current science, and their answer to, "How does you're fire sphere work?" is "Magic." and "Where does it draw energy from?" is "The mana field." Getting to "Magic exists" isn't hard.

"It's magic" was basically the explanation given by most of the locals for all the advanced technology SG1 encountered, and yet in each case they searched for - and came up with - scientific (or at least pseudoscientific, Stargate was heavy on the superscience) explanations for all of it. The difference in this setting is that everything really is magic, but your SG1 expies are going to be coming up with their own solutions. So the dvergar claim to have devices that produce heat from nothing? Without access to such a device (note I suggested SGC wouldn't be able to get to such until they'd built up enough trust with the dvergar), they could posit all manner of ideas of how it works... and even after they have access, they might come up with ideas like "vacuum energy" or whatever (like for the ZPM's).

Seriously, SG1 encountered a race of perfect shapeshifters who violated the law of conservation of matter and energy (they were naturally SM+0 humanoids, but could turn into things like ravens or similar without nuking the surrounding area), could teleport things around, could revive the recently-deceased (or at least "mostly dead") of their kind, etc, whom the natives stated were magical spirits who had helped drive off the Goa'Uld centuries prior... and SG1 held to the belief these "spirits" were just aliens with advanced technology (and turned out to be correct).

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Varyon

"It's magic" was basically the explanation given by most of the locals for all the advanced technology SG1 encountered, and yet in each case they searched for - and came up with - scientific (or at least pseudoscientific, Stargate was heavy on the superscience) explanations for all of it.

Two things:
1) Most of the locals were either TL3 and their claims of magic were already suspect or they had something to gain claiming that it is magic (i.e. Gouald who used "miracles" to prove their godlyness, Ancients who wanted people to stay away from their advanced technology.) Industrially advanced Dwarves have seemingly nothing to gain claiming their boilers are powered by magic and obviously know how they work, so their claims seem more likely to be taken seriously.

2) Stargate continually came up with explanations and then had them proven in some way (if I recall correctly usually because insight in how something worked let them disable it or whatever.) Here, whatever scientistic explanation you come up with is either wrong (and gets proven wrong) or squares with the local's fantastic explanation. You might not think much of, "Well the orb of endless flame heats.tje steam back up", but if the people claiming that have a whole system making other predictions that have been proven true, their explanations start seeming more credible.