[HT] [TS] More machine-gun questions

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Why are you assuming that I’m talking about soldiers, when I already mentioned “characters” with too few magazines? Outside of campaigns where everyone is a soldier, the typical RPG character doesn’t have a dozen magazines or proper load-bearing equipment, and in my experience parties don’t standardize on a few calibres so they can swap magazines.

While your main point is solid for the first time a 'rag-tag' group of civilians is in a firefight, I'd question whether any character whose main occupation is getting into fights can be legitimately assumed to continue to behave like a civilian for long, at least if he's smart.

Soldier/mercenary/murder-hobo is largely a matter of who pays him. Doesn't change the fact that PCs in combat-heavy campaigns should generally adopt the same sensible survival strategies as other professionals in the field of personal warfare. Like carrying along only what they'll really need, but making reasonably sure that this includes everything they'll need. Including ammo enough to deal with the fact the initial plan will probably not work out perfectly.

And among the tricks of professionals that PCs will either start out knowing or pick up very quickly is that it's far better to have a regular weapon that you still have ammo for than an exotic, cool and optimised one, ammo for which you've run out and can't get more.

I'll grant that players have sometimes insisted on their PCs demonstrating personality by a different caliber backup weapon or something, but the general rule in any vaguely realistic campaign is that ammunition shall be interchangable within the squad*, unless there is a clear tactical benefit from having a weapon with varying functionality that oughtweighs the logistical complications. A related rule is that weapons shall be chosen with a reference to the most common and easily available ammunition in the operating theatre.

There are lots of ways to bring into focus the unique personality of PCs. I don't think that in a campaign which features frequent violence and its attendant consequences, it is reasonable for them to include having supposedly intelligent and capable characters fail to apply their intelligence to staying alive.

*Section, team, adventuring group. All pretty much the same thing, function-wise.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Much of what is being discussed there is a function of the Fire Direction skill in 3e, which is absent in 4e.

Fire Direction skill? In 3e? I looked in the update booklet and didn't find it. Are you sure you're not mixing in some house rule?

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You don't necessarily have the freedom to move to get more ammunition. Or clear sight to where any downed enemies dropped their weapons.

Well, if you have a weapon and a couple of reloads, either:
A)you are in a close quarters combat, then, you can easily pick a weapon of an enemy behind.
B)you are in a long range combat, in this case, you will need many minutes to empty your magazine and plan with time how to get more ammo
C)you are surrounded by many enemies, you can't get out of where you are, so, the best option here is surrender or wait until allies come.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Why are you assuming that I’m talking about soldiers, when I already mentioned “characters” with too few magazines? Outside of campaigns where everyone is a soldier, the typical RPG character doesn’t have a dozen magazines or proper load-bearing equipment, and in my experience parties don’t standardize on a few calibres so they can swap magazines.

Well, most heavy fighting enough to empty all magazines will be in military campaigns where the player does not carried enough magazines.

But, let's say it's not a military:

A)He wants a self defense weapon, a Glock 17, he will have 18 rounds in 2lbs, more than enough for self defense, with that, he could probably kill at least 2 enemies easily and pick their weapons.

B)He is expecting trouble, so, he carries a M1 carbine, with 2 spare magazines, it's 46 rounds in 7lbs, more than enough to kill 5 enemies, if he aim and shoot every bullet, it's enough to kill 10+ enemies, at least 1 will be nearby enough to pick the weapon.

C)He is going in for trouble, and carries a Ruger Mini 14, 2 spare magazines, and a glock 17 with 1 spare magazine, it's almost 100 rounds in 11,6lbs, with you can use to easily kill 10 enemies, with, at least 2 or 3 nearby enough to pick the weapon.

D)He knows he is going to a heavy fight, in with he will use many rounds, but doesn't want to waste weight with extra magazines, he should probably carry a ruger mini 14 with 30 rounds, 2 spare magazines, all with 30 rounds(or a 90 round drum), and Five-Seven with 2 extra magazines. the total would be 150 rounds in 12,5lbs.

Someone in situations like these that carry no extra magazines, uses a low ammo weapon and all ammo is in loose rounds, is expecting to die.

Not to mention that most fights between civilians are very fast, less than 10 seconds and it's done, most gunfights ends with either someone wounded or killed or no one hurt, with one side running away.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There are lots of ways to bring into focus the unique personality of PCs. I don't think that in a campaign which features frequent violence and its attendant consequences, it is reasonable for them to include having supposedly intelligent and capable characters fail to apply their intelligence to staying alive.

It might arise if the players had different expectations about what sort of violence and consequences would apply. Fictional teams of special snowflakes each with their own weird primary choice are not exactly that rare and fit pre-existing gaming frameworks.

If the players didn't realize that they'd really need to think about logistics (or just didn't think about it very well), you could easily get it wrong.

Or this could be a thing that comes up when you got into way, way more trouble than you were expecting but, as PCs are want to do, are still trying to work it through to the point that you're hoping you can reload a magazine and stay in the fight.

[Kalzazz]

I usually consider 20 combat rounds of ammo to be sufficient

For instance a character with a bolt action rifle can get by with 20 bullets while an ATR 1 character dual wielding ROF 10 rifles needs 800

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I usually consider 20 combat rounds of ammo to be sufficient

For instance a character with a bolt action rifle can get by with 20 bullets while an ATR 1 character dual wielding ROF 10 rifles needs 800

What about reload time?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Sable Wyvern

I'm not sure many militaries employ SFMG at all. I know the Brits and the Australians do, but I've never come across any references to it outside Commonwealth troops.

The USMC supposedly teaches it at the Advanced Machine Gun Leaders Course at least according to some graduates I knew. They never actually used it in training afterwards though.

Originally Posted by Þorkell

Fire Direction skill? In 3e? I looked in the update booklet and didn't find it. Are you sure you're not mixing in some house rule?

FDC was a skill in 3e it is not in 4e (same with Operations).

[Kalzazz]

All of my characters who have used guns with rare exception have used either quick reload perk or spare guns enough to negate reload times

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

While your main point is solid for the first time a 'rag-tag' group of civilians is in a firefight, I'd question whether any character whose main occupation is getting into fights can be legitimately assumed to continue to behave like a civilian for long, at least if he's smart.

<Shrugs> De gustibus non disputabo. Some gamers get their jollies from playing disciplined professionals, but most seem to prefer crazy adventurers. Some play commandos, others people who sometimes get into gunfights. In none of the modern games I have been in was there any attempt to standardize weapons, or was there much reason to- there was time to go home between fights and reload, and the characters' main occupation was not gunfighting. I'm not saying that anyone else's experience is the same!

Realism wise, I notice that the loadouts in Tactical Shooting are often far from giving everyone a main weapon in the same calibre.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Realism wise, I notice that the loadouts in Tactical Shooting are often far from giving everyone a main weapon in the same calibre.

They seem to do pretty well, actually, in having a single common rifle round.

Obviously, if some of the team has a shotgun or SMG, that's not going to match up. I suspect that those options would only be issued in special roles, but I don't know for sure.