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Old 02-07-2010, 10:44 PM   #21
SimonAce
 
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

Until GURPS Tactical Shooting comes out may I recommended a standby of mine "If in doubt its a perk"

If you want a character to do these things under pressure than just charge 1pt.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:34 AM   #22
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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Originally Posted by SimonAce View Post
Until GURPS Tactical Shooting comes out may I recommended a standby of mine "If in doubt its a perk"

If you want a character to do these things under pressure than just charge 1pt.
Yes, but what is the game effect of the Perk?

Can the character reliably ready more shells than the average person? How many can the average person draw at once? How difficult is it?

I know that a trained man can Fast-Draw 4 shells at once, because Green-Neck posted a video of him doing it. I know that a relatively normal man probably has no problem reaching for 2-3 shells at once instead of one and he can probably grab more with one Ready manuever. At what point does he require a sucessful DX check to keep them all Readied at once?

Does this depend on his Basic Lift, much like the rules for Rapid Fire with small thrown weapons*?

And the Perk Quick Reload, as written, is unsuitable for use in all but the most cinematic games. I find it unsatisfying that for cartridge firearms, instead of reducing reloading speed gradually (and with options of taking it more than once), it eliminates it for detachable magazines and speedloaders and reduces all other loading times down to 1 second. Removing 25% of the time, as for blackpowder weapons (with a minimum of one second per perk so that there is a benefit for detachable magazines) would have been fine for me.

But how to use Quick Reload with shotguns with internal magazines in a realistic setting? What combination of skills and Perks, for example, does Vitaly Kruchin, the man speed-loading a shotgun in the video, have?

*An interesting rule, at least. I'd probably use the lower limit, so that a normal man could Ready 0.4 lbs. (2) of shotshells at once without any check and a stronger man (presumably with larger hands) could Ready 3 or more. I don't know if I'd have the player roll anything for doing this, even under combat conditions, as this does not appear to be much harder than just reaching for one shell. Going above this limit would call for a DX check at -1 per extra shell.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:03 AM   #23
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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The way I read the section, opening and closing the action in one Ready manuever was only required for weapons without loading gates.
Have you considered that since you have misread each of the other issues we've talked about in this thread, it might be you? The issue is the paragraph break between shotguns and the other internal magazines, but its clearly not a whole new topic.

Anyone familiar with the mechanics of a pump shotgun will tell you that if the magazine is full and the chamber empty you must cycle the action to feed a round from the magazine tube to the chamber. In addition, there is a slide release that must be depressed in order for one to do this on an empty chamber. Manipulating this button may require making the weapon unready. Shotgun rounds will not magically leap from the tube to the action. Even a semi-auto must have the bolt cycled manually before it will fire. As I said before, the tactical way to reload is single rounds loaded into the tube -- and yes, this is usually done with a round in the chamber. If you shoot the gun dry, that extra cycling of the action (which the movies make much of) is going to take time.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:13 AM   #24
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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And the Perk Quick Reload, as written, is unsuitable for use in all but the most cinematic games.
It's realistic for the best conditions with trained folks using detachable magazines, and otherwise it simulates video game reality in which a shooter's weapon is ready to fire again after a slight pause of "reloading!"

As for your other questions, the rules as written provide all the individual steps to answer your questions. One could ready 3-4 shells from a holder or pack to hand in one second. One could then load the shells very quickly from those in his hand, thumbing them into the tube. That takes one second per shell, minus the Fast-Draw (Ammo) reduction at the end.

I have no problem using the Double-Loading technique to grab and load two loose shells into a shotgun at a time, even though it was intended to deal with double-guns and swing-out revolvers.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

Icelander, its a game not a perfect simulation. if in doubt fudge until the official rules come along.

How I'd do it is, anyone may draw one shell, anyone with a dexterity of 12+ (or possibly guns or quick load or whatever else you think qualifies) can draw 2 with no roll (and this includes manual dexterity) with the Perk a person can draw 4 with one action. Don't bother with a Dex roll unless you think it makes the game more fun.

Once tactical shooting is out, use those rules for future games.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:47 AM   #26
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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Have you considered that since you have misread each of the other issues we've talked about in this thread, it might be you? The issue is the paragraph break between shotguns and the other internal magazines, but its clearly not a whole new topic.
Very true.

On the other hand, I read "Other weapons with internal magazines -like clip-loaded pistols and all bolt-action rifles -require the user to open the action, retrieve and insert ammunition (either individual rounds or a charger clip), and then close the action. Opening and closing the action takes one Ready manuever." to mean that this applied only to other weapons than the shotguns discussed previously. Otherwise, why make a point of refering to 'other' weapons?

And if that was not the intention, I think that this paragraph is confusingly enough written to warrant clarification in the form of either errata or at the very least an official FAQ-note.

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Anyone familiar with the mechanics of a pump shotgun will tell you that if the magazine is full and the chamber empty you must cycle the action to feed a round from the magazine tube to the chamber. In addition, there is a slide release that must be depressed in order for one to do this on an empty chamber. Manipulating this button may require making the weapon unready. Shotgun rounds will not magically leap from the tube to the action. Even a semi-auto must have the bolt cycled manually before it will fire. As I said before, the tactical way to reload is single rounds loaded into the tube -- and yes, this is usually done with a round in the chamber. If you shoot the gun dry, that extra cycling of the action (which the movies make much of) is going to take time.
I never disputed any of this.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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And if that was not the intention, I think that this paragraph is confusingly enough written to warrant clarification in the form of either errata or at the very least an official FAQ-note.
The issue here is that we have one way defined by one rule (one shell at a time) and another way defined by another set of rules (multiple shells at a time) without clearly defining the assumptions and parameters by which we arrived at the second set, despite there being plenty of evidence for people to arrive at the conclusion on their own. Yes, perhaps Hans will very clearly explain and clarify all of this in TS.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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In addition, there is a slide release that must be depressed in order for one to do this on an empty chamber.
On my Mossberg this is only the case if the firing pin is already cocked. That is, you may either depress the slide release (which can be awkward) and rack the slide, or simply pull the trigger to send the firing pin home on an empty chamber, then rack the slide as normal. Pulling the trigger is a lot faster.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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On my Mossberg this is only the case if the firing pin is already cocked. That is, you may either depress the slide release (which can be awkward) and rack the slide, or simply pull the trigger to send the firing pin home on an empty chamber, then rack the slide as normal. Pulling the trigger is a lot faster.
There are millions of variations on loading/handling issues, and some organizations may not allow one to pull the trigger except when the barrel is in a bullet catching device or deliberately fired at a target (I know, but have seen the range rules) and I am sure some shotgun exists that probably does not have a slide release, or has one that is easily depressed so that it would not require a separate action or unready the weapon. Still, I hoped to explain why one-for-one and filling an empty gun may differ in reload time. <shrug> Hopefully folks appreciate the effort. Honestly, a lot of times it feels like a waste.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Tactical reloads of shotguns

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If it's already "at your finger tips," Icelander, it's READY. That reduces the time, bud.

"It takes one Ready maneuver to open the breech, one to remove the spent cartridge, one to retrieve a fresh cartridge, one to insert it, and one to close the breech."

If you are holding the cartridge in your hand, that's one less ready maneuver. Of course, that means you can't use that hand very well -- and it might require a DX roll, even at penalty as in other cases mentioned on p. HT80. No such thing as a free lunch.
why the time on the remove expended shell casings?all double side by sides and over n unders eject the shells upon snapping the breech open,the only time you'll have a problem is when you use cheap shells or the breech gets REALLY dirty and fouled,though for a casing to fail to eject is rare.i have a stevens single barrel 12 ga that has a habit of not ejecting,i usually have to snap the breech open with a upward motion to get the casing to properlly eject,but it's been WELL used.never really had a problem with a shotgun not ejecting,so the time your charging the players to physically remove the spent casings is not needed.
i can open the breech in any shotgun in a fraction of a second,i don't know how much actual shooting you do,it don't take no time to ratch a slide or flick a shotgun breech open.
i can open the breech on my savage double barrell while it's still coming down from my shoulder and have two shells inserted in the breech in about 2 seconds 8 out of ten times.
it takes much more practice to speed load a pump but with some practice it can be done quickly,usually this is only done when in a emergency and then only for 1 or 2 shells.
most military shotguns now use mags either box or cassette.
just my thoughts as i shoot a lot.
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Last edited by reb; 02-08-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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