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Old 02-15-2017, 11:51 AM   #51
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
On a related note, it bothers me that armour that looks fashionable uses a x4 or x20 multiplier in Cutting Edge Armor, but nearly everything else, including armour in Low-Tech, uses Cost Factors for the same concept.

I really don't think that it should cost more to make well-tailored armour made from superior materials look fashionable and cool than it does to make armour badly made from cheap materials do it.
Honestly, I've always felt that styling and the like should simply be a set (for a given TL) price boost to the item, rather than a multiplier or even CF. I don't see why gussying up a suit of plate to make it appropriate for Status 2 Parade Armor would cost so much more than doing the same for leather armor (heck, because plate is already rather impressive-looking and expensive, one could actually justify it costing less to make Parade Quality). I could see increased thickness making Parade Quality a bit more expensive, as you've slightly more surface area to cover, but nowhere near what you get with CF/multipliers.

Of course, I'd also prefer a system that differentiated amongst material cost and "labor" cost, with the latter having a note for how much time it corresponds to (higher skill laborers are paid more per unit time). I put labor in quotes because, at higher TL, things like the amortization on your sewing machine factor in (a machine that can readily handle ballistic fabric probably costs more than one that is used for more mundane fabrics).

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Is there some reason to think that DR shouldn't be linear?
I know the DR values in Low Tech aren't linear, but approach being so as DR goes up (most of the metal armors work out as +1 DR per given unit weight - thus per unit thickness* - with a "free" +1 tacked on that accounts for things like padding, deflection, etc). The system in the armor design articles basically takes the linear relationship at higher DR and exports it down to apply at lower DR.

*Technically, as thickness goes up, each unit thickness would cover a bit more surface area, so the weight increase wouldn't be quite linear, but would be close enough.ac

Last edited by Varyon; 02-15-2017 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:23 PM   #52
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Is there some reason to think that DR shouldn't be linear?
There's the basis of that addition in quadrature business - making an armor layer twice as thick makes it twice as protective, but mounting two copies of that armor layer separately is more like sqrt(2) times as protective.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:05 PM   #53
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Honestly, I've always felt that styling and the like should simply be a set (for a given TL) price boost to the item, rather than a multiplier or even CF. I don't see why gussying up a suit of plate to make it appropriate for Status 2 Parade Armor would cost so much more than doing the same for leather armor (heck, because plate is already rather impressive-looking and expensive, one could actually justify it costing less to make Parade Quality).
I started making Ornamentation a fixed price in my DF games, because in DF, the cheapest way to get +3 reactions is to buy a really fancy hat. +9 CF on a $10 item apparently works better than +1 CF on a $6000 item. Now I use a system similar to the one for DF Henchmen: you can spend as much as you like, but you only get reaction bonuses when your spending goes over certain thresholds: $1000 for +1, $4000 for +2, +10000 for +3. It makes more sense to me. Sadly, it's a pain up the tail to automate in GCA so the net effect is that no one ornaments their stuff anymore.
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Old 02-15-2017, 01:30 PM   #54
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
There are definitely restrictive effects from certain body armor configurations in real life.

Is there some reason to think that DR shouldn't be linear?
Given the way GURPS handles damage, yes; it generally has 'damage' go up as the square root of energy, which means DR should vary with the square root of energy that can be stopped. Two layers can probably stop 2x as much energy and thus should have sqrt(2) times as much DR.

Independently of this, three layers of level IIIa armor (DR 12 each) will not stop a rifle bullet, so adding them together creates realism problems.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:45 PM   #55
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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the cheapest way to get +3 reactions is to buy a really fancy hat.
It's a secret known only to dungeon delvers and southern belles.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:10 PM   #56
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Sadly, it's a pain up the tail to automate in GCA so the net effect is that no one ornaments their stuff anymore.
I think I just thought of a way to do it. Let me meditate and get back to you on this.
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:02 PM   #57
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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It's a secret known only to dungeon delvers and southern belles.
And Jägermonsters. Don't forget them. :)
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Old 02-15-2017, 08:02 PM   #58
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
There's the basis of that addition in quadrature business - making an armor layer twice as thick makes it twice as protective, but mounting two copies of that armor layer separately is more like sqrt(2) times as protective.
I'd forgotten that effect. Sum of squares is a bit much to do at the table, but an approximation works - with equal DR of the layers, the first layer is at full DR and the second is at half DR (should be closer to 40%, but half is easier). With unequal DR, the higher DR is retained, while the other is reduced - divide by 3 up to x1.5, by 4 up to x2, by 5 up to x2.5, by 6 up to x3, by 7 up to x3.5, by 8 up to x4, and so forth. Round final DR normally (0.5 rounds up to 1). There are some breakpoints where things are a bit off here*, but mostly it will work out fine.

This raises a question, however - ballistic fabrics typically consist of multiple layers of fabric, sewn together (or similar) at the ends. It doesn't seem like laying a 10 layer jack on top of a 20 layer jack would be much different from a single 30 layer jack. Certainly, I wouldn't expect a brief bit of needlework at the edges (to nominally combine them) to triple the effective DR of the outermost layer. Should ballistic fabric simply follow the quadratic progression from the start - that is, should a half-inch thick piece of Kevlar have only 50% more DR than a quarter-inch one, rather than the currently-assumed 100% more (x2 DR for x2 thickness)? If not, what is it about the way layers of ballistic cloth in a single nominal piece are set up that make it count as a continuous whole, rather than as layers?

*For example, if you have a DR 13 and DR 12 layer, the above has these combine into DR 17 (13 + 12/3), while a DR 12 and DR 12 layer would instead combine into DR 18. If you're really close to a breakpoint, it might be appropriate to use the lesser divisor.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:17 PM   #59
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This raises a question, however - ballistic fabrics typically consist of multiple layers of fabric, sewn together (or similar) at the ends. It doesn't seem like laying a 10 layer jack on top of a 20 layer jack would be much different from a single 30 layer jack. Certainly, I wouldn't expect a brief bit of needlework at the edges (to nominally combine them) to triple the effective DR of the outermost layer. Should ballistic fabric simply follow the quadratic progression from the start - that is, should a half-inch thick piece of Kevlar have only 50% more DR than a quarter-inch one, rather than the currently-assumed 100% more (x2 DR for x2 thickness)? If not, what is it about the way layers of ballistic cloth in a single nominal piece are set up that make it count as a continuous whole, rather than as layers?
Because they're not just sewn together at the edges. They're sewn together much more tightly than that, and thus flex and absorb energy as a unit, rather than as two separate objects.

The line is a bit blurry with flexible fabric armour, but it's not that blurry.

FWIW, my ruling on layered armour and the DX penalty is based on the test "Were the layers designed to work together as a single set of armour?" It's not perfect, as there are some layerings that aren't, but probably shouldn't give a penalty (a ballistic coat over a thin undercover vest, for example), but it's a good rule of thumb to start from, IMO.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:34 PM   #60
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Default Re: Layered Cutting Edge Armour

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This raises a question, however - ballistic fabrics typically consist of multiple layers of fabric, sewn together (or similar) at the ends. It doesn't seem like laying a 10 layer jack on top of a 20 layer jack would be much different from a single 30 layer jack. Certainly, I wouldn't expect a brief bit of needlework at the edges (to nominally combine them) to triple the effective DR of the outermost layer. Should ballistic fabric simply follow the quadratic progression from the start - that is, should a half-inch thick piece of Kevlar have only 50% more DR than a quarter-inch one, rather than the currently-assumed 100% more (x2 DR for x2 thickness)? If not, what is it about the way layers of ballistic cloth in a single nominal piece are set up that make it count as a continuous whole, rather than as layers?
Speculating beyond my physics/material science competence, I'd suggest that ballistic fibers against ballistic attacks would tend not to suffer this in the same way, because of how they'd deform in normal action. The projectile is going to be deforming all the fabric layers before it actually breaches any of them, meaning the inward layers get to support the outer ones, not just act as additional barriers after they're broken.
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