Azoth-2: TL3 with Alchemical Nukes

martinl · 10-10-2009, 12:33 PM

Paging idly through IW today, I noticed that one interpretation of Azoth-2 is "TL3 with Alchemical Nukes."

There's some interesting socio-dynamics for you...

LoneWolf23k · 10-10-2009, 09:21 PM

Can you imagine that kind of Cold War?

Ulzgoroth · 10-10-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

Can you imagine that kind of Cold War?

No, I can't imagine a cold war in a setting where transport and sensor capabilities favor a decisive first strike as much as TL3 with nukes would.

nick012000 · 10-10-2009, 10:16 PM

I dunno. It's TL 3+2; that implies a bit more than alchemical nukes. They've probably got Alchemical Airships and the like.

martinl · 10-10-2009, 10:41 PM

It's TL 3+2 *now*.

I also doubt the intent was alchemical nukes, since that would be TL 3+4.

But TL 3 plus nukes is freaky. Depending upon the cost of the alchnukes, castles, cities, or even towns might become impractical...

I'm gonna assume an alkonuke is 10 kt, is transportable on a horse, and costs about as much as a small keep.

The fallout shelter (dungeon) might be the only plausible fortification, formation size is effectively capped at economically alkonukable, and naval warfare is right out.

War gets wierd, and society with it.

Ego Archive · 10-10-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No, I can't imagine a cold war in a setting where transport and sensor capabilities favor a decisive first strike as much as TL3 with nukes would.

Actually, that assumes that they don't also has Alchemical Far Sight (mirrors that show the enemies keeps, or wizards with bird familiars that can spy on troop movements), or teleportation (Enchanted doorways, with permenant portal spells). They may even have fast moving airships (Dirgibles with warlocks that control powerful air elementals), that could drop whole bombing runs of small yield nukes.

If you know the enemy keeps several Dirgibles loaded with nukes, "in the air", then you may need to spy on them in hopes of finding the flight pattern; of course your probably doing the same thing, so your enemy will be trying to find out your secrets too. :D

Ulzgoroth · 10-11-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Archive

Actually, that assumes that they don't also has Alchemical Far Sight (mirrors that show the enemies keeps, or wizards with bird familiars that can spy on troop movements), or teleportation (Enchanted doorways, with permenant portal spells). They may even have fast moving airships (Dirgibles with warlocks that control powerful air elementals), that could drop whole bombing runs of small yield nukes.

If you know the enemy keeps several Dirgibles loaded with nukes, "in the air", then you may need to spy on them in hopes of finding the flight pattern; of course your probably doing the same thing, so your enemy will be trying to find out your secrets too. :D

Well, it does assume that, because TL3 + alchemical nukes doesn't mean the same thing as TL3+4 (alchemical).

But the measures proposed don't really clear up the problem. Dirgibles in the air are probably too slow and too vulnerable to be effective instruments for a MAD strategy. Jet bombers were less than sure, historically. Hidden dungeons full of teleporter wizards ready to blink bombs to targets might do it, but they very probably make a first strike too strong again, because if you manage to find all the wizard silos, the defender has no time to launch a counterstrike.

What you need in the setting actually proposed is something to stop one guy with a horse or mule from transporting a bomb into blast range of absolutely anything remotely valuable. Otherwise a cold war makes no sense, because you might not know the enemy's attacking until most of your civilization is an assortment of exotic vapors.

~~tantric~~ · 10-11-2009, 05:33 AM

In Tad William's War of the Flowers, the situation is accomplished by using dragons. The scene in which a dragon destroys Parliament with a surprise attack is deliberately written to resemble a nuclear strike, though it also unfortunately resembles the 9/11 attacks.

My own campaign features two magically powerful civilizations in conflict. It's a cold war now, slow attrition on both sides, but eventually the players will have to decide whether or not the use of WMD's to commit genocide is acceptable in their circumstances.

We have four main vector of war-death: gunpowder, nuclear fission and chemical and biological weapons. A magical world has *thousands*. Zombie apocalypse, weather magic, fire elementals, dragons, sonic death rays, sentient cloudkills, prismatic MIRV's - the imagination is literally the limit.

I particularly like the 'Prismatic MIRV' - I gonna hafta use that one.

robkelk · 10-11-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What you need in the setting actually proposed is something to stop one guy with a horse or mule from transporting a bomb into blast range of absolutely anything remotely valuable. Otherwise a cold war makes no sense, because you might not know the enemy's attacking until most of your civilization is an assortment of exotic vapors.

Refresh my memory, please: Does Azoth-2 have precognition/divination magic?

Gudiomen · 10-11-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tantric

eventually the players will have to decide whether or not the use of WMD's

Wizards of Mass Destruction?

10-10-2009, 12:33 PM	#1
martinl Join Date: Jan 2006	Azoth-2: TL3 with Alchemical Nukes Paging idly through IW today, I noticed that one interpretation of Azoth-2 is "TL3 with Alchemical Nukes." There's some interesting socio-dynamics for you...

10-10-2009, 09:21 PM	#2
LoneWolf23k Join Date: Sep 2004	Re: Azoth-2: TL3 with Alchemical Nukes Can you imagine that kind of Cold War?

10-10-2009, 10:16 PM	#4
nick012000 Join Date: Jul 2009	Re: Azoth-2: TL3 with Alchemical Nukes I dunno. It's TL 3+2; that implies a bit more than alchemical nukes. They've probably got Alchemical Airships and the like.

10-10-2009, 10:41 PM	#5
martinl Join Date: Jan 2006	Re: Azoth-2: TL3 with Alchemical Nukes It's TL 3+2 now. I also doubt the intent was alchemical nukes, since that would be TL 3+4. But TL 3 plus nukes is freaky. Depending upon the cost of the alchnukes, castles, cities, or even towns might become impractical... I'm gonna assume an alkonuke is 10 kt, is transportable on a horse, and costs about as much as a small keep. The fallout shelter (dungeon) might be the only plausible fortification, formation size is effectively capped at economically alkonukable, and naval warfare is right out. War gets wierd, and society with it.

10-11-2009, 05:33 AM	#8
~~tantric~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Athens, GA	Re: Azoth-2: TL3 with Alchemical Nukes In Tad William's War of the Flowers, the situation is accomplished by using dragons. The scene in which a dragon destroys Parliament with a surprise attack is deliberately written to resemble a nuclear strike, though it also unfortunately resembles the 9/11 attacks. My own campaign features two magically powerful civilizations in conflict. It's a cold war now, slow attrition on both sides, but eventually the players will have to decide whether or not the use of WMD's to commit genocide is acceptable in their circumstances. We have four main vector of war-death: gunpowder, nuclear fission and chemical and biological weapons. A magical world has thousands. Zombie apocalypse, weather magic, fire elementals, dragons, sonic death rays, sentient cloudkills, prismatic MIRV's - the imagination is literally the limit. I particularly like the 'Prismatic MIRV' - I gonna hafta use that one.