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Old 10-19-2020, 12:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

Various treatments for leather are definately part of a leather kit at higher TLs and I would think that analogs would exist at TL1 to varying degrees. These are such things as saddle soap, glue, water proofing oils and waxes.

A higher TL leather toolkit would also include rivets, stamps and moulds.
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Old 10-19-2020, 02:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

The biggest and most expensive parts of any sewing kit are usually the cutting and measuring tools. Most of them will function for both fabric and light leather. For example, my sewing kit has scissors, scalpels, rotary cutters, seam rippers, cutting boards, measuring tape, paper, masking tape, rulers, french curves, compasses, chalk, pencils, and set squares. Almost all of those work for both materials. A serious sewer will be fussy about using exactly the right scissors for the material, but generally you can get away with anything sharp. Likewise, thimbles are universal.
The next biggest thing is thread. Leather will usually use thicker thread than fabric, but there will be a crossover and so long as you aren't too concerned about aesthetics you should be able to use stuff intended for one on the other. You may have to twist a couple of strands of thin stuff together to get something which can handle thick leather, but that isn't too difficult.
You would typically want different needles, but even in low-tech societies needles are small and cheap so you could easily keep both in your kit.
You will need an awl to work with leather, but not with fabric. I think you might be able to get away with using a seam ripper, but I'm not sure when they were invented. The kit in LT includes an awl anyway.
Essentially, I see no reason why one kit couldn't handle both cloth and leather by including only a few small, cheap extras.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

An awl is used with fabric. When quilting multiple layers together or inserting rivets or grommets, the awl is used to spread the weave so the needle, grommet, or rivet can pass through without breaking strands. A leatherworking kit is essentially the same as a sewing kit except that the tools are heavier.
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Old 10-20-2020, 04:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
One of the players in my TL1 fantasy campaign is looking to have her character own a leatherworking tool kit. Consulting GURPS Low-Tech, I see that it lists a "tailor's kit" as suitable for working with cloth or leather.

1. Will the same kit work for both cloth and leather, or do you need two sets of slightly different tools for the two materials?

2. The kit doesn't seem to include tools for producing the leather in the first place. What would go into a tanner's/furrier's kit?

Please comment/suggest.
All due respect to a fellow tailors, we are talking TL1 sewing (this doesn't include the tanning leather prep at all really). TL1 is generally labeled "Bronze age", this doesn't mean you have access to bronze tools, just that Bronze is the pinnacle of tech in this time period.

The sewing kit would probably be more like my "SCA travel pouch" having thread (gut perhaps sinew as its gathered), needles (most likely bone), a knife hopefully metal (making this very expensive) or stone(s) making it heavy and needing additional skill set, and an awl (pushing bone through thick hide isnt something you want to try often unless your supply of needles is endless), and finally a knotted cord for measuring (if you even bother to measure accurately at this TL).


RE the producing leather and what is needed in a kit Not much really that's available at this TL. Your best option is going to be doing it very much "American Indian" style.I use this as an example cause its the one Im most familiar with as a North American, Im sure there are many other examples across the globe.
No iron means no buckets, no large tubs, and you wouldnt use that technique anyway at TL1 IMO. You will need a cooking vessel large enough to hold the brain and some water and be heated, clay or hide pot probably.

This is a really rough run down and there are a lot of "technical" bits in each of these steps, and most of these steps are much more involved than one line sentences. This is just to give you an idea of what happens and what tools you might need. Native american Indians did this with TL0 tools. So all this other TL stuff just makes it easier if you have it.

Brain tanning is probably the method you would use. It takes something like 8-10 days if this is your only task and the weather is just right. More people wouldnt really help much except in the defleshing and softening stage. There are a couple stages where you could just stop and roll it up and move then pick back up withing a couple days.

You don't need to make stretchers, that's just one technique for drying/fleshing the hide. If you do, for something deer/cow/moose/buffalo sized that's going to take a sturdy frame, to much for transport. You would probably just drap it over a log at this TL. Rabbits and raccoons you could probably transport pegged on boards if you have the TL to produce them.

Deflesh it. Just what it sounds like, take anything not hide off. But this is the "chunky stuff". Multiple people could work at this and doesnt require a great deal of training or skill.

Scraping the hide isnt that technical for tools really, you can used wood/stone/bone scrapers if your willing to stop and put and clean the edge on softer materials. It IS however a skill IMO. This is carefully (surgically) removing everything from the hide, here is where you can poke holes or accidentally cut into the hide. This takes a while and you cant really stop and move on at this stage because you have to get all the stuff off the hide or it will start rotting.

Wash well... multiple times, and check/correct scraping.

Wet well before brains, but dont dry completely you want it soft and a little damp.

Braining, you will need to oil the hide, this is where the brain comes in. Make a soup and rub into the entire surface (both sides if you removed the hair). One brain makes enough for one hide, generally.

After that "soaks in" (couple days maybe) you wash it and start drying it, but then you have to soften it as it drys (several methods) but the jist is if you just let it dry out it will turn into ridged "rawhide" and be not useful as clothing.

Then you heat/smoke it to add the last bit of preservation.


Vegetable (bark/nut hulls)/Lime/Alum are other tanning methods that give you a slightly different product and use different reagents. Different colors, slightly different preservation, and different materials. But these are where you get into mass production and "Pits and staying in one place for months". Getting a basic preservation on a hide to make it useful leather will probably be some form of Brain tanning at this TL.
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Old 10-20-2020, 05:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

One thing that a leatherworker is likely to need that a tailor doesn’t use is a sewing palm.
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

Thank you all for the advice. Here's what I'm tentatively thinking of as a synthesis:

* A leatherworker's tool kit is the same as a seamster's, except that it has twice the weight and cost. Either can be used as improvised gear for the other, at -2 to skill.

* Tanning hides can be done either on a small scale, by a hunter, farmer, or housekeeper, or on an industrial scale, by a professional.

* Small scale tanning can be done with household goods or group basics plus improvised gear, at -2 to skill. Or some sort of specialized tools can be used, at a cost based on estimates in this thread.

* For industrial tanning, using improvised gear is -5 to effective skill, and it can't be done at all without equipment.

* Small scale tanning can use Housekeeping or Survival.

* Preparing the hide of a man-sized animal takes two days of immediate effort, and then a week more that can be interspersed with travel.

* Preparing the hide of a small animal such as a rabbit or a raccoon takes a quarter day, and can be done after a day's travel.

I need to look at the effects of having ceramic cooking vessels rather than metal, in terms of weight, as I think it's right to suppose that copper or bronze kettles will be rare and expensive at TL1.

Have I said anything that appears seriously unrealistic or inaccurate?
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:01 AM   #17
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Have I said anything that appears seriously unrealistic or inaccurate?
I think the key question for determining whether you need a separate kit for leather working is whether low-tech scissors will go through it. At 1.5 lbs. they are going to be fairly big, but the design doesn't seem like it would offer much mechanical advantage. I'd guess (and it is very much a guess, never having worked with them) that they can go through heavy cloth or light leather OK, but would struggle with heavy quilted cloth or thicker leather. That implies that the standard sewing kit would be fine for leather clothing but armour and boots would require a different kit.
I think that a kit for working with thicker leather would weigh substantially more, since if you can't cut with scissors you pretty much need a cutting board. But the actual cutting implement will be pretty much a scalpel, which is cheaper and uses less metal than scissors, so I don't think cost should increase.
You may also want a small hammer for hobnails, rivets, and staples. That will probably be pretty cheap, but add a bit of weight.
So my best guess on tool kits would be that a tailor's kit should work for any clothing, but would have a penalty for footwear and armour. A cobbler's kit for dealing with heavier grades of leather would probably be twice the weight, but not cost any more.
None of these include anything for shaping and hardening leather, which is something I have no real idea about. Presumably you need wooden forms, lots of cordage, a boiling vessel and possibly some oil and wax. I suspect you can get away with using a cooking pot, a few chunks of green wood hacked into shape, and the standard adventurer's rope supply, for shaping at least.
Maintaining leather through waxing, oiling, and polishing is probably necessary, but entirely separate from tailoring it. I don't think you need much equipment for this; a bit of wax and a rag should do, probably costing and weighing next to nothing and included in 'personal basics'.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Thank you all for the advice. Here's what I'm tentatively thinking of as a synthesis:

* A leatherworker's tool kit is the same as a seamster's, except that it has twice the weight and cost. Either can be used as improvised gear for the other, at -2 to skill.

* Tanning hides can be done either on a small scale, by a hunter, farmer, or housekeeper, or on an industrial scale, by a professional.

* Small scale tanning can be done with household goods or group basics plus improvised gear, at -2 to skill. Or some sort of specialized tools can be used, at a cost based on estimates in this thread.

* For industrial tanning, using improvised gear is -5 to effective skill, and it can't be done at all without equipment.

* Small scale tanning can use Housekeeping or Survival.

* Preparing the hide of a man-sized animal takes two days of immediate effort, and then a week more that can be interspersed with travel.

* Preparing the hide of a small animal such as a rabbit or a raccoon takes a quarter day, and can be done after a day's travel.

I need to look at the effects of having ceramic cooking vessels rather than metal, in terms of weight, as I think it's right to suppose that copper or bronze kettles will be rare and expensive at TL1.

Have I said anything that appears seriously unrealistic or inaccurate?
I wouldn't bat an eye if you presented me that as a player, its within an acceptable zone for realism.

As a GM (and a person with some familiarity with hides) I would give the "Small Scale" a +1 to their survival/housekeeping if they also have leather working at more than IQ. Knowing how the finished product should look, and how it's used would be an advantage to creating it.

Small scale this is only for a Hide (hair on) and the Braining technique. Two days for Fleshing and scraping and the initial washings of a wolf hide is pretty spot on. Seven more days is mostly waiting for stuff to dry/set but that timing works for game level realism.

As a GM if 2 people are willing to work together I wouldn't penalize them for Improvised gear for stretching/pounding either. Frames at this TL (and frankly pretty much today) were all improvised anyway.

Removing the hair, to make it leather. I have never even seen it done "Old school (no metal tools)", so I'm extrapolating for game purposes. Thick hides like cow and pig/boar are much more forgiving, I would double the afore mentioned prep time to account for the extra side. In reality it might even be more. Thin skins like rabbits or lamb are really more difficult because they are very easy to damage I would triple the base prep time to remove the hair (I have poked holes in rabbit hide scraping them in a hurry with modern tools). After that there is no additional time for processing leather opposed to hide.
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Old 10-20-2020, 03:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
Removing the hair, to make it leather. I have never even seen it done "Old school (no metal tools)", so I'm extrapolating for game purposes. Thick hides like cow and pig/boar are much more forgiving, I would double the afore mentioned prep time to account for the extra side. In reality it might even be more. Thin skins like rabbits or lamb are really more difficult because they are very easy to damage I would triple the base prep time to remove the hair (I have poked holes in rabbit hide scraping them in a hurry with modern tools). After that there is no additional time for processing leather opposed to hide.
Smaller animals tend to have thinner hides. You have to work more slowly than with larger animals but the surface area is a lot smaller as well, which reduces the time required. You may as well call it a wash and assume the same time for all hides.
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Low-tech tool kits: leather

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Have I said anything that appears seriously unrealistic or inaccurate?
By the second millennium CE where we have sources, European leatherworkers usually used big crescent-bladed knives to cut leather, while European tailors used scissors with pivots. We already see this in the Shoemaker vase in the Ashmolean which would be TL 2 in GURPS, but if you have a good pair of large TL 3+ scissors (I think scissors with pivots are a medieval technology, shears with a spring go back to the iron age) you can probably cut most leather with it. Scissors are annoying to make so shears and knives were preferred for many tasks in societies which also had scissors.

The leatherworker will probably have an awl and blunt needles whereas the embroiderer, embellisher of textiles, or TL 2+ tailor will have a selection of sharp needles, and the choices of threads may be different, but those are not heavy or expensive just a matter of choosing the right expendable materials.

In terms of work hours and waiting time for brain / fat / smoke curing and alum tawing, point us to your ethnographic sources and someone might be able to say if they feel right.

My impression is that low-tech hide processing industries don't use anything durable except a few cutting tools / scrapers: its all pits, and wooden vats, and clay pots, and cord for hanging things over a smoky fire or keeping them stretched to wooden pegs on a wooden frame.
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