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Old 10-16-2020, 11:32 AM   #31
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post

Of course, however heroic the fanatic – thanks to other disadvantages, despite other disadvantages, or aside from other disadvantages – they're still a fanatic. Their cause might be good (I like liberty!), but their devotion is irrational and unreasoning. Choosing a good cause despite its flaws is one thing; being convinced a cause is good without seeing its flaws is another. Playing someone with Fanaticism does mean playing somebody who would be, in casual parlance, "crazy." But then so does playing somebody with a great many other disadvantages . . . that's kind of why they're disadvantages.
Captain America could be written that way but in the final analysis he isn't. At least not in a sustained way. He has passed through the hands of too many different writers and editors to have the consistency of a Fanatic.

For example, Captain America is informed at the start of (the comic book) Civil War that the American government expects him to support the super registration bill and go around and arrest any supers or vigilante crime fighters who don't register, including supers who just aren't inclined to play cops and robbers and don't want to be drafted into being a superhero. He flips them the bird, goes on the run and gathers resistors to the registration act and things escalate into a war with thousands of supers fighting. OK. Fine. Fanatic devotion to American ideals.

Except.

When we look at how that event ended, things stop when Cap looks at the collateral damage from the conflict, and decided that his cause isn't worth it and surrenders. Sense of Duty to Americans trumps his belief that civil liberties are being violated. Fanatics don't do that. They double down because their cause is more important than any other consideration. What you want all the death and destruction to be for nothing? It's the other guy's fault for failing to see how right I am!

Last edited by David Johnston2; 10-16-2020 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 01:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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I don't know; one of the examples from the book is a patriot saying "Give me liberty or give me death!".
I never liked Patrick Henry much but any soldier says give me whatever or give me death. Heck the crew in Sea Patrol are saying, "Give Australia unpoached fisheries or give us death" but that is hardly fanaticism.
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Old 10-16-2020, 01:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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A test I've used for this is if you have Sense of Duty you are willing to die for the cause if you can't think of an alternate plan that stands a reasonable chance of providing similar levels of benefits. Fanaticism means you actively *look for* the chance to die for the cause, looking for alternatives or considering whether the cause would actually gain anything are just disloyal waffling.
Actually that is pretty good.

Or a short hand is that a Fanatic never answers the question, "And then what?"
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:32 PM   #34
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

All this being said, is there a single reason you can think of for the game to have both Fanatic and Obsession?
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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All this being said, is there a single reason you can think of for the game to have both Fanatic and Obsession?
Well, there are two differences. An Obsession is not or typically something you want to bring about for the entire world; it's something you want to attain in your own life. And an Obsession CAN be attained in a finite time, whereas Fanaticism implies an open-ended pattern of behavior.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:23 PM   #36
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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Captain America could be written that way but in the final analysis he isn't. At least not in a sustained way. He has passed through the hands of too many different writers and editors to have the consistency of a Fanatic.
That's just kind of comics in general, it's why I tend to lean on MCU because it's less inconsistent.

I'm glad for the breakdown on the differences (which contradict what I said!). Fantaticism (Liberty) perfectly explains why he is so much against the unconstitutional Sokovia Accords that he was willing to shatter the Avengers over it.
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Old 10-17-2020, 12:26 AM   #37
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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All this being said, is there a single reason you can think of for the game to have both Fanatic and Obsession?
For me, it's that Fanatic is an ideological temperament. You find a system or cause, you weigh and judge everything by it, and for me that's a pretty normal style of thinking. By contrast, an Obsession is a domineering interest and frankly I have trouble getting into that headspace. I get the Centrum Agent who believes in Centrum or the Interworld Service above all else, I don't get the climber who wants to be Rank 7. They're not the same sort of thinking.

Fanaticism is closer to Code of Honor (in fact, it subsumes Code of Honor in some cases) whereas Obsession is closer to Greed, and this is reflected in the way the disadvantages are built.
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Old 10-17-2020, 12:57 AM   #38
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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By contrast, an Obsession is a domineering interest and frankly I have trouble getting into that headspace. I get the Centrum Agent who believes in Centrum or the Interworld Service above all else, I don't get the climber who wants to be Rank 7.
On the note of MCU, there's a character who's in constant, terrible pain and has Obsession: Remove the pain (probably at 6) to the point where there's only one time she's able to shove aside the obsession and not for long.

"Remove the terror" is probably the easiest Obsession to understand (IRL I personally knew people who had it for getting their lives to a point where they never had to feel hunger again and later replaced it with Gluttony). Past that, the next likely one is "Be good enough", wherever that line is put, to the point that it is the primary directive of your life. This can easily be mistaken for other disads; Obsession: Very Wealthy may come across as Miserly or Greed, Obsession: Kill Dr. Doom could be seen as Fanaticism.

Also, I can easily see a character having both Fanaticism and Obsession. It could even be related; Using that example, someone is fanatic about Centrum while also obsesses about becoming their leader and the Obsession might be rooted in the Fanaticism.
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Old 10-17-2020, 08:41 AM   #39
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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TFantaticism (Liberty) perfectly explains why he is so much against the unconstitutional Sokovia Accords that he was willing to shatter the Avengers over it.
It wouldn't explain why he went to The Cube (the secret underwater prison) and only broke out his friends that he knew had done nothing wrong by his standards. A Fanatic (Liberty) would have busted everyone out of the secret black prison. Since Fantics aren't sane they might object to imprisoning anybody anywhere.

The whole Winter Soldier arc is about SOD (Friends) and nothing about Fanticism(nebulous concept).

Anyone who was going to take Fantacism (Liberty) would have to explain to me in detail what they thought that meant. I don't have an adequate defintion handy.
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Old 10-17-2020, 10:30 AM   #40
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Default Re: Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

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No, just no. Captain America does not have any sort of "My County Right or Wrong!" Disad.

When his country (usually in the form of its' government) is wrong he stands for what's right. Besides many, many instances in the comics the whole Civil War movie illustrates this.
A lot depends on how you view Cap's ideology:
If it's fanaticism of the nation (which I don't think it is) then you can say "My County Right or Wrong!"
However, if (like me) you view it as fanaticism of the America's Founding Ideology, then if your countries leaders are doing 'bad things' that are not in line with the ideology, you'd be 'forced' to call them out.

Captain America stands for (as they said of Superman) Truth, Justice & the American Way.
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