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Old 05-15-2018, 08:24 PM   #11
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

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Originally Posted by King_Of_Bel View Post

What do you mean by this? I've got a 4e Gurps Magic.
GURPS MAGIC for 4e is largely unchanged from all the earlier editions of GURPS MAGIC. That isn't to say that there are no changes, but that where it counts the most in energy costs, durations, enchantment energy costs and the likes (such as prerequisites), the spells are pretty much the same.

Where the edition changes show up the most are:

GURPS MAGIC for 4e combined EARTH TO STONE with STONE TO METAL from GURPS GRIMOIRE. It also introduced spells like ESSENTIAL WOOD, which as a spell, does better for wood than adding extra DR and fire-proofing enchantments for the energy costs involved than I'd allow a player made spell to have in a campaign (but due to being published material, is canon).

If you ever want to have fun, grab GURPS FANTASY 1st edition (where MAGIC spells for GURPS was first introduced), GURPS MAGIC 1st edition, GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition, plus 2nd edition 2nd printing, GURPS GRIMOIRE, and finally GURPS MAGIC for 4e - to chart how the magic rules changed over time, and I think you might get a chance to see why GURPS MAGIC for 4e is the way it is. Subtle changes to spells such as COPY demonstrate intended changes to make spells more useful. Then there are the structural changes in enchantment rules that, though minor, are major in effect. Case in point: a skill 12 enchanter could create a power 15 items by taking longer to enchant their item, trading time for skill in enchantments, something no longer possible in GURPS MAGIC for 4e (due to one line not in GURPS MAGIC for 4e present in prior editions - whether by intent, by accident, or for reasons of word count paring down).

In the end, you'd have to compare the previous editions against each other, if it even matters to you. But - the basic framework of the whole thing remains the same.

I usually advise new GMs to use GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC (GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition 2nd printing plus) so as to avoid some of the issues from GURPS GRIMOIRE (imported into GURPS MAGIC for 4e largely unchanged). Yrth from GURPS FANTASY 1st edition is possible. Yrth as written in GURPS CLASSIC FANTASY (what was GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition) or GURPS BANE STORM could never have come into being as written due to spells introduced with GURPS GRIMOIRE or unfettered access to all the spells in GURPS MAGIC for 4e.

Even now, for my own campaings, spells like EARTH TO STONE are being revamped with new energy costs and/or spell durations to make the game effects of spells less economically devastating for world building purposes.

But, that's a tale for another day. One that largely isn't of much interest for most GURPS fans. ;)

Last edited by hal; 05-15-2018 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Autocorrect changed take to take - darn it
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:41 PM   #12
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

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Originally Posted by King_Of_Bel View Post
I am not asking for the monetary cost. I am asking about the energy costs of enchantment custom spells.
That depends entirely on how you are coming up with the custom spells. The oddity about enchantments is that the costs seem to get more efficient the better the enchantment, but then you get weird outliers like Youth being extremely priced. Further, the costs don't line up at all with advantage prices. Sadly, that means the most direct approach you can do is figure out the most expensive base enchantment (before things like Power making it free), either by the book or by what you think should be the most expensive custom spell, then just interpolate based on something like "difficulty", or even market value and work backwards. Enchantments in Magic aren't consistent with themselves.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:07 PM   #13
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
That depends entirely on how you are coming up with the custom spells. The oddity about enchantments is that the costs seem to get more efficient the better the enchantment, but then you get weird outliers like Youth being extremely priced.
You probably mean Halt Aging rather than Youth. There is no item for Youth.

The Halt Aging Item does circumvent some strong requirements such as the need for Magery 2, 8 prereqs and a semi-major Powerstone.

Also, to Hal's point from earlier, I believe the Halt Aging Spell and its' Item actually predate the appearance of the Unaging Advantage in Gurps but when Unaging did first appear it cost 60pts. Even Longevity was 40 pts.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

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You probably mean Halt Aging rather than Youth. There is no item for Youth.

The Halt Aging Item does circumvent some strong requirements such as the need for Magery 2, 8 prereqs and a semi-major Powerstone.

Also, to Hal's point from earlier, I believe the Halt Aging Spell and its' Item actually predate the appearance of the Unaging Advantage in Gurps but when Unaging did first appear it cost 60pts. Even Longevity was 40 pts.
I was more making a point about the silly way spells are costed, but you make a similar point. The "reason" Youth is so expensive is because being able to live longer is worth a ton of money to a lot of people. However, Unaging is only worth 15pts (right? I've houseruled it at 5). Should an item that gives Unaging be worth the same as Perfect Balance?

Which I think is part of the problem with Magic (the book); the system is both kind of out-dated and I'm not certain it's been heavily balanced with the system as a whole. This isn't necessarily even a problem (I still used it for years), it just makes custom changes hard to balance.

I guess the big question is; Do you want enchanted gear to be balanced around character points (so that all 10pt advantages are about the same money price), or to try and guesstimate with a system that doesn't seem to have a consistent rule for enchantment costs?
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:55 PM   #15
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
nce.

I guess the big question is; Do you want enchanted gear to be balanced around character points?
Before I got to this point I would first want to balance Character Pt costs against each other. That downward change for Longevity was only one of the legacy costs that needed to be made. A significant number of others remain. This is why I am dubious of Magic as Powers as an alternative to standard Magic..
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

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Before I got to this point I would first want to balance Character Pt costs against each other. That downward change for Longevity was only one of the legacy costs that needed to be made. A significant number of others remain. This is why I am dubious of Magic as Powers as an alternative to standard Magic..
I understand that, and that's why I've personally gone through and tried to hit outliers (MyGurps's note about age related traits makes a great point). I wouldn't say MaP is perfect, but I've found it both far more balanced than Magic and easier to change or create things as needed. For instance, my post earlier about prices was based around Wealth being the money trait and reversing it. Money itself is not well balanced intentionally since what people want in real life is absolutely different from what Players want to buy, and what adventuring characters want to buy. Mind, then there's the further "What metric are we using to ensure balance?" and I don't want to derail this topic.

I do like the simplistic 1cp=100 energy, even if it doesn't line up with Magic enchanting, since it's at least close and it's a simple rule to follow.

Since Enchantment Energy cost is basically a middle man to item cost, you can figure out what tier of wealth level you want casually buying the item then reverse the cost from there to get the energy cost.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:10 AM   #17
King_Of_Bel
 
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Default Re: Rule of Thumb for Enchantment Energy Cost of Custom Spells

Thanks all. This has been pretty helpful for me. I'll start working on thinking through all the various implications.
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