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Old 05-10-2018, 02:10 PM   #21
Gollum
 
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Campaigns says that it does not effect ST-based qualities, which would implicitly include BL.
I understand things exactly like that too.
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Old 05-10-2018, 02:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Our Gurps never has exertion after exertion. We might have a short moment of combat (less than 10 turns easily), followed by nothing really. There is always an easy hour in there where our characters could "rest" and regain that 6 fatigue we might have spent during the fight (which we never spend that much). We usually end our sessions with us all going to sleep for the night, unless someone has something specific they want to do that night, in which case they usually just sleep in longer than normal and have no fatigue to start the next session. We always travel with a vehicle, so there's no fatigue to be gained there. We're usually set in a town of some sort, so there's no starvation to come into play.

That Last Grasp seems the right move for us. I'll have to look at it closer and see if I can convince our GM to apply it.
I could be wrong, but I doubt The Last Gasp would really make a lot of difference in that case. If you never have more than a brief exertion followed by an extended rest, FP being irrelevant is entirely appropriate.
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Thanks for that suggestion! I'm seeing more and more suggestions for my Gurps complaints coming from these Pyramids. Makes me feel like Gurps 5th edition is necessary...but I know where that stands. :(
I don't think that if they made a 5th edition it would have The Last Gasp incorporated into core rules.
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Yes. As said above by Ulzgoroth just above, and by Alexanderhowl in the previous page, the problem doesn't come from the rules. No matter which rules you use, your player characters just don't tire themselves at all ...

So, the question is probably not "how to give fatigue points more meaning?", but how to make your characters more exhausted. And Alexanderhowl answered to it: just use adventures which don't give them so much time to rest.
Edit:
Make foes attack your player characters during night (and they will miss sleep hours), make adversaries tire themselves to move their plan forward (and your PC will have to follow that pace, or to abandon), make the events go fast ... Brief, think like a TV series or an action movie author. In those stories, heroes don't have all the time they want to rest.
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Lost sleep should be a big factor for FP loss in any adventure. If you allow your characters a full night of sleep during a mission, it is a vacation, not an adventure. Instead, they should sleep a maximum of six hours a night, meaning that they start suffering from major problems after a week. Missing meals should also be a big FP sink during a mission, as most people cannot consume a full meal in 5 minutes (I would require the Fast Eater Perk for anyone who is capable of spending less than 10 minutes eating a meal).
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:08 AM   #25
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I could be wrong, but I doubt The Last Gasp would really make a lot of difference in that case. If you never have more than a brief exertion followed by an extended rest, FP being irrelevant is entirely appropriate.
.
Yep, if the PCs have adequate rest period between fights (or other exertions) fatigue should be manageable and not be a problem. So like AlexanderHowl says if you don't want that to be the case, don't run your encounters (or fatiguing events) at that pace.

I'll add that PCs attempting to engineer their fights to be at this pace is good combat tactics!

That said Last gasp does kick in faster with penalties than the rules in Campaigns, so all else being equal it is more likely that you see some fatigue effects quicker and more often with it.

A PC with 10FP will see a negative effect upon spending or losing 2FP in Last Gasp, but in Campaigns is unaffected until spending 7FP.

Additionally since FP loss due to AP expenditure in Last Gasp happens during combat, but FP loss after a combat lasting 10 or more seconds occurs after the combat in Campaigns. Those penalties are also more likely to hit you while you still fighting.
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:13 AM   #26
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Lost sleep should be a big factor for FP loss in any adventure. If you allow your characters a full night of sleep during a mission, it is a vacation, not an adventure. Instead, they should sleep a maximum of six hours a night, meaning that they start suffering from major problems after a week.
I agree that ongoing lack of adequate sleep can be a big factor (I do think the current rules are a bit tough though!)


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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Missing meals should also be a big FP sink during a mission, as most people cannot consume a full meal in 5 minutes (I would require the Fast Eater Perk for anyone who is capable of spending less than 10 minutes eating a meal).
Depending on what the food is though, I would allow eating while walking to keep calorie intake up.
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:16 AM   #27
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

I think I remember some house rule where someone had active defenses at a much lower base (without the inherent +3 I think), and then required Last-Gasp-ish FPs to bring that back to normal.

That to me sounds like an interesting foundation for an alternate approach: Don't require to track spending for "ordinary" actions, but give incentives for using them. Basically "Extra Effort" with a lowered bar for how special an action is -- and of course how fast those spent FPs recover.
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Old 05-11-2018, 06:57 AM   #28
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Another thing to consider is adequate water. Even shorting characters by two quarts a day will have them suffering a cumulative 1 FP loss per day, which can only be recovered by one day of adequate water per FP lost. This is especially valid in low fantasy settings, where the water might be contaminated by disease, requiring characters to hydrate with ale (or beer) or risk disease.
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Old 05-11-2018, 07:17 AM   #29
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

Unlike AlexanderHowl I don't think it's a given that your PCs should be suffering death march conditions all the time. Nor do they have to for FP to be relevant.

But they definitely aren't going to have much problem with FP if they're experiencing good living conditions, no long-term exertions (like hiking or physical labor) and only occasional high-intensity efforts with plenty of time to rest after. And that really just makes sense.
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Old 05-11-2018, 08:14 AM   #30
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Default Re: How to give fatigue points more meaning?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Unlike AlexanderHowl I don't think it's a given that your PCs should be suffering death march conditions all the time.
I don't believe that AlexanderHowl think that. But between a death march and a holiday journey, there is a great leeway. Just look at movies, novels, TV series ... Do the heroes always have time to rest as much as they want?

The only way to make Fatigue Points meaning is to put characters in some situations when they are exhausting themselves ... if only from time to time.

Most of us already do that in his daily life.
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