Engagement and unready missile weapons

[RobW]

This came up twice tonight. Legacy rules say engagement is produced by "armed and otherwise dangerous" figures.

In a megahex-wide corridor, Crossbow fires and now will have to spend a turn reloading. Does Crossbow still engage enemies that want to run past?

Sword charges Archer, and Archer takes the "one last shot" option.
Sword survives and is now standing next to a figure that does not have a usable weapon.
Is Sword engaged?

Tonight anyway, I went with no engagement in both cases.

[MikMod]

I think I would ask the crossbow and bow user if they intended to engage, perhaps using their bows as clubs? If so then they can engage if they wish. But if they just flatten themselves against the nearest wall and are happy to let someone run past them, then they could choose not to engage.

[oldwolf]

Of course he is engaged. A light crossbow weighs 6 pounds and may well have a steel bow. Think of it as a club or even a crude pick axe. Additionally, even a bare handed opponent is armed with fist and foot.

[larsdangly]

It is an important question for game play in general as to whether you think an unarmed combatant can engage you without entering HTH. I've never seen a clear statement or example, other than the phrase from the core book quoted above.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

It is an important question for game play in general as to whether you think an unarmed combatant can engage you without entering HTH. I've never seen a clear statement or example, other than the phrase from the core book quoted above.

It seems to me the answer is clearly "yes": ITL page 122: "It is possible to fight without any weapon at all, either in hand-to-hand combat (e.g., kneeing and gouging) or in regular combat (punching and kicking)."


And so I would say that RAW yes, the archers both engage you because they could choose to attack you with their unarmed attack.

On the other hand, I think it would make a lot of sense to rule that when the swordsman tries to move past the loading crossbowman, the crossbowman should have to answer whether he wants to try to stop the swordsman by threatening a melee attack, or whether he wants to be able to load his crossbow this turn at the cost of not engaging the swordsman.

And overall, I think it points to the reason why some GMs house-rule an "ignore engagement" option where a moving figure can move through engagement if they are willing to accept an attack from the foes whose engagement they are ignoring at the same time.

[JustAnotherJarhead]

Originally Posted by RobW

Crossbow fires and now will have to spend a turn reloading. Does Crossbow still engage enemies that want to run past?

IF HE WANTED TO, YES.

Archer takes the "one last shot" option.
Sword survives and is now standing next to a figure that does not have a usable weapon.
Is Sword engaged?

YES (with an arrow protruding) AND the Archer had better quickdraw a sword unless he's gonna Parry with bow, losing it in the process.

Ques 1
Ques 2

[RobW]

Ha, as OP I see I didn't explain my reasoning, at all. Let me try again.

RAW say you are engaged when in the front hexes of an "armed or otherwise dangerous" enemy.

In these cases, at the time of movement, the crossbow and archer figures do not have a ready weapon and are not armed. I agree that in the action phase they could drop what they are holding and attack barehanded. But they aren't barehanded yet, here in the movement phase.

So it seems the reloading crossbow and the made-one-last-shot archer do not qualify as armed or dangerous. A clearer but analogous example would be a figure carrying a wounded comrade. He could drop his comrade and become dangerous, but until he makes the drop, he is not combat ready.

Writing this I see two reasonable alternatives.
1. You allow missile weapons to be used as bad clubs. OK, then those figures clearly engage enemies. I don't recall that possibility RAW, but I do remember RAW mentions using missile weapons to defend with (and getting shredded in the process).
2. You allow weapons to be dropped in the movement phase. The missile users could do this, during their movement, and then engage enemies by prospects of a barehanded attack. Dropping weapons during movement is consistent (although not listed) with 'actions during movement', p 104. But note this still means that if the missile users lost initiative, they might not have the chance to drop their weapons before their enemies move.

All that said, the most important reason for me in allowing this was to increase drama. In the first example, avoiding engagement was used for tremendous dramatic effect in an arena battle. In the second example it was the other side getting their evens in (what seems like) a similar situation.

[Aman]

The RAW in Melee says you are engaged.
p.5 - you are in one of an enemy figs 3 Front hexes
p.9 - same

Also, it's just common sense.

I am trying to kill you [why, doesn't matter - you got it comin'!].
I shoot at you with a weapon, miss and start to reload. You've no idea how dangerous I am using my crossbow as a club. My crossbow may have an axe or mace attached to it [plenty of examples in museums]. Or, unbeknownst to you, I could be able to yank your eyeball out at high speed [thank you, beatrix kiddo] while holding on to my crossbow, or WHATEVER. I am not incapicated and unconscious, therefore I'm a threat, and if you move into my 3 Front hexes you are engaged.

Does anyone like to get close to people who want them dead?

However, this being said, as a GM you can houserule anything you like for the sake of drama!

[KevinJ]

I see this as coming down to AdjDX.

If the intent of the attacking swordsman is to pass the bowman in the same turn in which the bowman shot at the swordsman and the swordsman has the movement to do so, then he could because the bowman has already used his combat action to shoot.

If, on the other hand, the swordsman cannot move past the bowman on that turn and instead they will both act in the next turn, it comes down to AdjDX. Each character chooses their combat action and determines AdjDX for that turn.

If the Bowman has the higher AdjDX he could drop his weapon and engage the swordsman in normal combat with punches and kicks to force his engagement.

If the Swordsman has the higher AdjDX he could advance past the bowman without becoming engaged. He might still be attacked by the bowman, but that would come after he has already advanced.

[hcobb]

Unloaded missile weapons are "unready" so don't engage.