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Old 05-18-2019, 09:00 AM   #1
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

With a normal 32 point character you can't start with DX 14 and IQ 13. You need a 35 point character to even get to ST 8, DX 14, IQ 13. Not so bad, you game for four to ten nights, get your 400 xp, and voila!

Not quite. If you had started with a very talented or somewhat experienced character you could be a master at 35 points. But since you started with a 32 point character, you can't buy the mastery talent from the start. Neither can you save IQ talents points by not using them at character creation, as far as I can see. There are no Study talents as in the first edition either. You will have to buy the talent at full talent cost, no matter what. Even if you start with an IQ of 13, you can't buy the talent, even though it doesn't work until you get DX 14, you can't even buy it without DX 14. So not only do you need to get to 35 points, that is 400 xp, you also have to invest 1500 extra xp for the talent itself.

So there is a huge difference between starting with a 35 point character and getting there from a 32 point character.

Is there a rule for saving unspent IQ talent points, that you can activate later on when you meet the prereqs? Or is there another way, bar magic stat boosting items that you can have from the start on a more or less permanent basis to get around the DX prereq?

Waiting for 400 xp is ok for most players, but 1900 xp just to be able to stab someone with a dagger is kind of expensive. Especially since a person that spent that XP on more attributes would be close to a 38 point character! And since we have proven that mastery isn't OP, by way of simulations, a 2,5 attribute point penalty will make it very sub par. Unless you start as a 35 point character, or you are allowed to save talent points at the start, then it is balanced.

Thoughts or links to this conundrum being discussed earlier would be nice? This is not quite the same problem as someone starting with a high IQ and by doing that gets bonus XP compared to the same build at higher levels where the IQ was bought later.
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:32 AM   #2
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

Two other options are open to you:
- Start with 35 (or more) point PC's
- Use the rules for flaws in the TFT Companion, which grant you extra starting stat points in exchange for various disabilities and personality defects
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:03 AM   #3
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
... Waiting for 400 xp is ok for most players, but 1900 xp just to be able to stab someone with a dagger is kind of expensive. Especially since a person that spent that XP on more attributes would be close to a 38 point character! And since we have proven that mastery isn't OP, by way of simulations, a 2,5 attribute point penalty will make it very sub par. Unless you start as a 35 point character, or you are allowed to save talent points at the start, then it is balanced.
It's supposed to be more than kind of expensive. It's supposed to be the sort of talent only some of the best and best trained warriors in the setting have, and many of them may not have.

Weapon Mastery isn't supposed to be balanced to make it an equally viable and available choice for beginning or moderate characters.


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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Thoughts or links to this conundrum being discussed earlier would be nice? This is not quite the same problem as someone starting with a high IQ and by doing that gets bonus XP compared to the same build at higher levels where the IQ was bought later.
This seems to me like a perspective coming from other games where the expectation is that most or all of the abilities are things a player should be expected to be able to start as a novice and survive to achieve in a relatively short period of time.

It seems to me that the new advanced weapon talents were added to the game to be interesting alternatives to raising attributes once a very experienced character started getting to around 38 character points. That is, not a thing a character can rush to get at 35 points, or else instead you get weird relatively inexperienced low-ST "masters" who have nothing else to learn about weapon talents.

And in practice, a ST 8 DX 14 fighter is a pretty feeble fighter. In typical original TFT adventures, he's not liable to gain much real fighting experience without getting killed unless he's being greatly assisted by a better fighters or a GM who never pits him against practically any serious situation. If he keeps putting points into IQ rather than ST, that situation is going to be prolonged.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:09 AM   #4
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

As presented in the new rules, Weapon Mastery (and UC V) seems intended as a pinnacle talent meaning that it won't typically be achievable until a character nears the top end of his stat potential... unless you are satisfied with being limited to mastery of a dagger only.
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

I take the question as not limited just to weapon mastery, but to higher IQ talents in general.

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Neither can you save IQ talents points by not using them at character creation, as far as I can see.
Not as far as I can see either, but this seems very reasonable even for RAW, yet with planning would allow easier progress into higher IQ talents.
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Is there a rule for saving unspent IQ talent points, that you can activate later on when you meet the prereqs? Or is there another way, bar magic stat boosting items that you can have from the start on a more or less permanent basis to get around the DX prereq?
BTW, under the old system, this was a very common occurance. You had to save up IQ for the more costly talents and in fact, I remember saving a couple during character creation so that I had a jump on picking up Fencing or some other key talent. That was one of the aspects that I really enjoyed about TFT... the planning that went into character advancement.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:16 PM   #7
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

Larsdangly, I absolutely agree that starting as a 35 point character is an alternative, but it is kind of strange that a player that starts at 35 points have many more options than a 32 point character that advances up to 35 points. I would almost expect it to be the other way around.

Handicap points are a very valid alternative to get around the problem, even if it doesn't fix it. :-)

But still, it is awkward and clunky. It would be smoother if it didn't matter much in which order you got to ST 10, DX 14, IQ 13 and a weapon mastery talent. In most game systems the order would not be relevant, the total xp needed would usually be the same.

Skarg, when I say it is balanced I mean that if I make different fighters with a 39 point total, there are top contenders with mastery and there are those with just expertise, and probably even a non-expert build in there too. I was surprised by how balanced it was. Sure the different builds performed somewhat different against different opposition and a greatsword wielder with high DX and low IQ had advantages like sweeping attacks, and mastery fighters with shield mastery had better defense against many opponents, and so on. But they are balanced. So there is no need to make mastery the "ultimate" reward for an advanced character. Just like you can start with ST 16, DX8 and IQ 8. Not the best build but it works and you can have the "ultimate" ST from the start. If you want to that is.

As it stands now, weapon mastery is not worth it. The extra glitchy XP cost is to steep, better to stay an expert (that you bought from the start) and invest in better attributes if you want to be a badass. And I don't complain about the cost. I am not a munchkin that wants to get it all after five evenings of gaming. I complain that the system is slightly illogical and not consistent. I wouldn't complain if the mastery was slightly better and had higher prereqs. since that would be balanced too. It is the strange fixed cost of talents. Combined with an exponential XP system. Combined with IQ that gives extra talents from start, but not later on. And the fact that you can't save up talent points or buy a talent that you don't have the ST or DX prereqs. for (but later on when you do fulfill the prereqs. you can start using them).

An ST 8 fighter is pretty feeble, I agree, but then again Arya with her Needle comes to mind. And she seems to be doing ok for her self. Or any other kind of back-stabbing rogue build (with Shrewd and maybe even two attacks with a back bonus). Or you could use a rapier with a negative modifier that you compensate for with magic or a finely crafted blade and so on. Such a build wouldn't top the lists but would be a strange alternative like the ST16 fighter above. And I don't want it working from character creation necessarily, I just want to be able to get it in a logical manner. I might even put in a house rule for an even higher level of mastery, just like UC got five levels. But if only a 40 point character can get those it shouldn't matter how they got to 40 points or in which order they took the talents or attribute advancements. The order of advancement didn't use to matter in the old version.

TippetsTX, I liked the study system too, and the fact that you got talents both for starting IQ and later IQ increases and could leave a few points unspent and spend them later once you had the prereqs. I think this is my main concern.

And yes RobW it is a more general question, but the more prereqs. that is needed the more strange it gets. Most talents with just IQ prereqs. can be taken from the start and doing so circumvent the problem, but it's no fun when everyone tries to start their character at their goal IQ instead of IQ being an attribute that increases over time like the others. As a GM I would even go so far as to recommend new players in a long campaign to get Master Physicker from start, or at least the IQ for it, if they planned on getting that talent later, instead of beginning with standard Physicker, IQ 11 and increase IQ with XP. If I didn't warn them they might get a little ****** off when they realized they just ditched 1500 XP for no good reason.

I think I will go with the possibility to save talent points in the form of Study Talents combined with the house rule of IQ increases also giving you talent points. I don't think that adjustment would be game breaking in any way.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:18 PM   #8
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Skarg, when I say it is balanced I mean that if I make different fighters with a 39 point total, there are top contenders with mastery and there are those with just expertise, and probably even a non-expert build in there too. I was surprised by how balanced it was. Sure the different builds performed somewhat different against different opposition and a greatsword wielder with high DX and low IQ had advantages like sweeping attacks, and mastery fighters with shield mastery had better defense against many opponents, and so on. But they are balanced. So there is no need to make mastery the "ultimate" reward for an advanced character. Just like you can start with ST 16, DX8 and IQ 8. Not the best build but it works and you can have the "ultimate" ST from the start. If you want to that is.
Maybe, but the need I see is more about what those talents represent than strictly the balance. I don't think figures with relatively low XP should be able to start with or rush to get those talents, and those characters tend to look to me like the weird by-products of trying to game the system to get the best talents as early as possible, rather than characters that seem to make sense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
As it stands now, weapon mastery is not worth it. The extra glitchy XP cost is to steep, better to stay an expert (that you bought from the start) and invest in better attributes if you want to be a badass. And I don't complain about the cost. I am not a munchkin that wants to get it all after five evenings of gaming. I complain that the system is slightly illogical and not consistent. I wouldn't complain if the mastery was slightly better and had higher prereqs. since that would be balanced too. It is the strange fixed cost of talents. Combined with an exponential XP system. Combined with IQ that gives extra talents from start, but not later on. And the fact that you can't save up talent points or buy a talent that you don't have the ST or DX prereqs. for (but later on when you do fulfill the prereqs. you can start using them).
I agree that the talents should be carefully developed and tested so that they make the most sense and work well, and I have not played with them enough to be sure. but my impression is that they have some issues, yes. They offer a range of unique abilities in one talent, and have IQ and DX requirements, and the "shrewd" attacks involve a DX penalty, making the whole situation rather complex to analyze. Certainly though there are some characters who would find it worth it (those who already have the prerequisites for other reasons, and who have enough attributes that the cost of raising those it quite high as an alternative thing to do with XP). So for some range of characters (perhaps a small one), I think they are a good choice.

I'm pretty sure those talents could profit from a lot more testing and tweaking, but at this point, this thread is really probably something that should be in the House Rules sub forum.
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:13 AM   #9
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Maybe, but the need I see is more about what those talents represent than strictly the balance. I don't think figures with relatively low XP should be able to start with or rush to get those talents, and those characters tend to look to me like the weird by-products of trying to game the system to get the best talents as early as possible, rather than characters that seem to make sense to me.
But that is just it, the rules as they stand now, encourage you to game the system by getting IQ talents from start instead of earning them. In short, you get a bonus of 500xp for every talent you buy up front compared to buying them later. And since there is no real difference between different kinds of attributes DX is as much about Skill development as IQ, for those talents or weapons that roll against that attribute. And a fighter being a Conan from the start or a genius with good training is pretty much equal in my eyes, and it is equal according to XP progression, except for you losing out on XP if you go with one and not the other first. The super experienced person is the one with a huge number of talents more than their IQ. And if you get the "best" talents from the start you will miss out on other talents and be less effective in a fight or physical areas or magic, etc. They are all good trade-offs.


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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I agree that the talents should be carefully developed and tested so that they make the most sense and work well, and I have not played with them enough to be sure. but my impression is that they have some issues, yes. They offer a range of unique abilities in one talent, and have IQ and DX requirements, and the "shrewd" attacks involve a DX penalty, making the whole situation rather complex to analyze. Certainly though there are some characters who would find it worth it (those who already have the prerequisites for other reasons, and who have enough attributes that the cost of raising those it quite high as an alternative thing to do with XP). So for some range of characters (perhaps a small one), I think they are a good choice.

I'm pretty sure those talents could profit from a lot more testing and tweaking, but at this point, this thread is really probably something that should be in the House Rules sub forum.
I agree that we are touching on the House Rules sub-forum, but this is kind of a central glitch in the XP system.
And I agree 100% that weapon mastery is mostly for those builds that goes the IQ route. Because they want other complex talents or it fits their character concept. This is what I love about TFT, you can make an ST-fighter, a DX-fighter a DX+IQ fighter or even a ST+IQ fighter with a BLOB build, and not only an ST+DX fighter. All different, all fun. Usually, different system only allows one attribute build, or maybe STR or DEX, but seldom a fun combination. And we got three relevant attributes that can be mixed back and forth for different flavors of a character.

I don't see Weapon Mastery as the pinnacle of fighting prowess over all, but rather the pinnacle of a specific build (DX+IQ) that makes different IQ builds viable, which they weren't in the first edition. A choice, not something better, but different. More costly, yes, but you also get access to other talents, but also less HP, etc. Balanced overall, except for those lost 1500 XP. :-)
But enough of this. I will allow handicaps (optional rule), saved talent points (rule interpretation) and maybe even the extra talents for IQ increases (and call it RAI - even though it is not, but should have been. :-) )
Play on!
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:37 AM   #10
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
But that is just it, the rules as they stand now, encourage you to game the system by getting IQ talents from start instead of earning them. In short, you get a bonus of 500xp for every talent you buy up front compared to buying them later. And since there is no real difference between different kinds of attributes DX is as much about Skill development as IQ, for those talents or weapons that roll against that attribute. And a fighter being a Conan from the start or a genius with good training is pretty much equal in my eyes, and it is equal according to XP progression, except for you losing out on XP if you go with one and not the other first. The super experienced person is the one with a huge number of talents more than their IQ. And if you get the "best" talents from the start you will miss out on other talents and be less effective in a fight or physical areas or magic, etc. They are all good trade-offs.
I quite agree with you on this and some of the other things you just posted (except for the parts I colored yellow, which I don't understand what you mean, but probably doesn't matter).

However it seems to me that is a core problem with only listing 500 XP per talent point as the only way to learn talents and spells. (My house rule solution is to keep the old TFT way of learning talents/spells, and adding more, similar to what you just suggested.) There are multiple threads about this in the House Rule subforum, where this thread probably belongs.

That is, I don't think it's just about Weapon Mastery - it's about the apparent RAW cost in Legacy edition of learning new talents.
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