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Old 07-12-2016, 08:53 AM   #81
Gollum
 
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
With a sword, factors such as your body structure and where on the sword you parry with make a HUGE difference.
It also does with arms (even if the lever effect is shorter than with a weapon, of course). That is why there are so many parry techniques, depending on the exact situation. For a shudan tsuki, for instance (a punch aimed at the middle of the torso) you can use shudan uke, hiki uke, harai uke, tomoe uke ... It all depends on how the foe exactly attacks and on his exact distance. And even with shudan uke only, you have got three possibilities: shudan uke, soko tsuki shudan uke and tsuki shudan uke ...

Even if the main purpose of these different parry techniques is what you want to make just after that (grapple, attack, where exactly?), another significant goal is to parry the foe's arm exactly where it is more easy to move it aside.

Furthermore, in Goju Ryu Shorei Kan, we absolutely avoid to use strength against strength. We try to "absorb" the attack instead, to deviate it the most easily than we can.

But with a true and very fast attack, the problem becomes timing. Have you ever seen a bare handed martial art master fighting? You've got the strange impression that he is moving slowly. This impression comes from the fact that he doesn't have to move quickly because he moves exactly at the right moment. He has got an incredible timing. And that is what makes the difference. Everything sounds easy for him while a beginner will need a lot of speed and strength to reach the same result.
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Old 07-12-2016, 09:00 AM   #82
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
I don't know what it could be for a 17 lbs weapon, but surely much more than 17.
Actually, it is 17, assuming it's balanced and used one-handed (LTC2 p15-16).
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Old 07-12-2016, 05:00 PM   #83
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

I know a lot of AJ's but to prove a point I'm going to bring a gun to a sword fight.

one young NCO I've meet is not Army Strong, in fact they keep giving her PT because she is well under curve on lifting strength to almost Discharge levels, but she works Admin, and is a top Pistol competitor. Years of training have given her some of the strongest wrists and arm tendons out there, her Grip Strength is only a bit above female average. if she was not a MBA (on about 1/8th of what she could earn on Civi Street) & Pistol Champion she would have bean out on her bum after her first enlistment term. she is extremely strong in specific tendons and muscle groups due to training, but overall is a weak lady compared to other soldiers and below average compared to civilians. Training builds the Muscles & Tendons to use that training, but without general Strength Training not to say lift a car.
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Old 07-13-2016, 12:38 AM   #84
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Actually, it is 17, assuming it's balanced and used one-handed (LTC2 p15-16).
OK. Thanks for the data (I don't have LTC2).

It mitigates what I said above. Having said that, even if a ST 17 guy can wield a 17 lbs weapon, it's quite rare. There is no such weapon in the Equipment list.
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Old 07-13-2016, 12:43 AM   #85
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Drop Bear View Post
I know a lot of AJ's but to prove a point I'm going to bring a gun to a sword fight.

one young NCO I've meet is not Army Strong, in fact they keep giving her PT because she is well under curve on lifting strength to almost Discharge levels, but she works Admin, and is a top Pistol competitor. Years of training have given her some of the strongest wrists and arm tendons out there, her Grip Strength is only a bit above female average. if she was not a MBA (on about 1/8th of what she could earn on Civi Street) & Pistol Champion she would have bean out on her bum after her first enlistment term. she is extremely strong in specific tendons and muscle groups due to training, but overall is a weak lady compared to other soldiers and below average compared to civilians. Training builds the Muscles & Tendons to use that training, but without general Strength Training not to say lift a car.
Exactly. I'm sure that swordsman have very strong muscles and tendons in the wrist and arm with which they wield their sword.
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:37 AM   #86
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Have you seen the Game of Thrones TV series (the combat between The Mountain and The Viper)? Even if it is fiction, and somehow cinematic, it perfectly illustrate that: the Viper needs a lot of attacks where the Mountain only needs a few ones (if not just one).
The movie Rob Roy is another fine example (the fight between the Scot with a claymore and the English with a rapier).

As for strength is unarmed combat, why you think there are weight categories for full-contact matches. Strength itself is difficult to measure but weight isn't and the strength-weight ratio becomes important.

With sword fights, I can imagine a human wielding sword with low strength will move the sword at a slower speed (which is not incorporated in GURPS) while a stronger person who also had the same training would have no problem is parrying those attacks. Not because he's so much better at parrying but because he sees the attacks coming. Even though a sword only weight 2.5lbs, the speed difference is noticeable. As others have already said, its a very specific strength, the strength needed to wield a sword.

At least, this is my own experience.
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:48 AM   #87
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

after a point strength means very little when looking at upper limits since the human neurology and skeletal musculature can only be pushed so far and maintain fine control required to fight effectively. in fact once you reach a point using your full strength and/or speed actually starts to limit your maneuver and technique choices.
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Old 07-13-2016, 02:06 AM   #88
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

F=MA. If you can exert more force over the same mass you will get greater acceleration. I don't see how that is ever not a nice thing to have in a fight.
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Old 07-13-2016, 02:48 AM   #89
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
...

With sword fights, I can imagine a human wielding sword with low strength will move the sword at a slower speed (which is not incorporated in GURPS)....
Just on that, I think that part of the that MinST rules are about.

Although it expresses as penalties to hit rather than damage, of course low ST already does less damage so you could argue it's already included.


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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
F=MA. If you can exert more force over the same mass you will get greater acceleration. I don't see how that is ever not a nice thing to have in a fight.
In abstract that's true, but bio-mechanics make it a lot less simple with all sorts of limiting factors.
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Old 07-13-2016, 03:02 AM   #90
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Default Re: Realism; Strength is not important for swordsmanship(?)

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Just on that, I think that part of the that MinST rules are about.
I'm not talking about swordsmen lacking the necessary strength, just a lower strength than their opponent. It matters a lot if my attack hits an opponent in les than 0.5 seconds after initiating it or at nearly a second. In GURPS it doesn't, in real life it does.
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