[DF] The Unarmored Spellcaster

Cowrie · 11-02-2018, 06:55 PM

In Dungeon Fantasy, wizards and other casters typically need armor to survive a dungeon crawl, and can cast while wearing armor without issue. However, popular media often depicts wizards clad in robes with no defensive value, and scantily clad sorceresses. Not to mention, That Other Game makes it so that magic-users are actively hampered by armor. In that spirit, I’d like to share a lens that changes DF spellcasters to be both limited by armor, and better able to survive dungeons without it.

The text references Magery, but the advantages Bardic Talent, Deathliness, Demonic Attunement, and all forms of Elemental Influence are all at root forms of Magery, and the adventurers using those advantages get the same change in point value per level. Technically, the limitation could also be applied to Power Investiture for druids, clerics and shamans, but but such “divine casters” are traditionally more likely to use armor.

Unarmored Spellcaster

+3 points

Advantages: DR 2 (Doesn’t Stack With Armor, -20%*; Force Field, +20%; Mana-Sensitive, -10%) [9] ● Add the limitation, Encumbrance Penalty on Spells, -20%** to all Magery. This changes Magery 3 [35] to Magery 3 (Encumbrance Penalty on Spells, -20%**) [29] for -6 points***. Additional Magery now costs 2 points less per level. ● To the list of options, add: Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12], DR 3-5 (Doesn’t Stack With Armor, -20%*; Force Field, +20%; Mana-Sensitive, -10%) [4.5/level], Enhanced Dodge 1 [15], and Temperature Tolerance 1-2 [1/level].
Disadvantages: Add Vow (Never wear armor) [-15] to the list of options.
Skills: If desired, you may replace any points in Shield or Shield (Buckler) with points in Cloak (DX/A).
* From Dungeon Fantasy Denizens - Barbarians.
** From Thaumatology.
***Bards, having only 2 levels of Bardic Talent, only save 4 points, giving this lens a value of +5 points for them.

What does everyone think?

Mister Negative · 11-02-2018, 08:12 PM

It works mechanically, but I'm not fond of the impact on the game. It lets the wizard have up to 5 natural DR (which is half-Ogre Barbarian range), which is also more effective than Tough Skin (thanks to Force Field). It doesn't do anything to discourage stacking that DR with the magic DR from armor either (the armor DR wouldn't help, but magic DR on robes would add).

This seems to put the Wizard in a place that he shouldn't be in a dungeon crawl--safe in harm's way, with no significant drawbacks.

Speaking as a guy running a game, I would want the wizard to be cautiously avoiding combat, and the other delvers keen to be keep him out of the fight as well.

I don't have a lot of experience running DF (plenty running GURPS in general), but, while wizards CAN wear armor, I haven't seen a lot of them wearing significant amounts of armor. I have seen them wearing a little bit of armor with significant amounts of magic on it, but that seems in the spirit of "bracers of armor' and 'robes of protection' tropes. None of the people playing wizards in my games have been willing to spend the cash and fatigue to load up in plate, or brigandine, or anything.

The Armor spell would provide 1 DR with no maintenance cost for any DF Wizard, and a DF Wizard with more than 3 levels of Magery (or a higher IQ than 15) could pretty easily hit skill 20 with it for 2 DR with no maintenance cost.

If the 'spells on' penalty is onerous, you might allow a Perk like "Habitual Spell" that makes one spell, when cast on yourself, not count for the 'spells maintained' penalty.

That seems much more "in genre", in that it's not only mana-dependent, but detectable by magic, thwarted by meteoric weapons, and dispellable by an enemy wizard.

Ulzgoroth · 11-02-2018, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

I don't have a lot of experience running DF (plenty running GURPS in general), but, while wizards CAN wear armor, I haven't seen a lot of them wearing significant amounts of armor. I have seen them wearing a little bit of armor with significant amounts of magic on it, but that seems in the spirit of "bracers of armor' and 'robes of protection' tropes. None of the people playing wizards in my games have been willing to spend the cash and fatigue to load up in plate, or brigandine, or anything.

Hard to imagine robes with "significant amounts of magic" being cheaper than equivalent conventional protection.

Cowrie · 11-02-2018, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

It works mechanically, but I'm not fond of the impact on the game. It lets the wizard have up to 5 natural DR (which is half-Ogre Barbarian range), which is also more effective than Tough Skin (thanks to Force Field). It doesn't do anything to discourage stacking that DR with the magic DR from armor either (the armor DR wouldn't help, but magic DR on robes would add).

This seems to put the Wizard in a place that he shouldn't be in a dungeon crawl--safe in harm's way, with no significant drawbacks.

Speaking as a guy running a game, I would want the wizard to be cautiously avoiding combat, and the other delvers keen to be keep him out of the fight as well.

I don't have a lot of experience running DF (plenty running GURPS in general), but, while wizards CAN wear armor, I haven't seen a lot of them wearing significant amounts of armor. I have seen them wearing a little bit of armor with significant amounts of magic on it, but that seems in the spirit of "bracers of armor' and 'robes of protection' tropes. None of the people playing wizards in my games have been willing to spend the cash and fatigue to load up in plate, or brigandine, or anything.

The Armor spell would provide 1 DR with no maintenance cost for any DF Wizard, and a DF Wizard with more than 3 levels of Magery (or a higher IQ than 15) could pretty easily hit skill 20 with it for 2 DR with no maintenance cost.

If the 'spells on' penalty is onerous, you might allow a Perk like "Habitual Spell" that makes one spell, when cast on yourself, not count for the 'spells maintained' penalty.

That seems much more "in genre", in that it's not only mana-dependent, but detectable by magic, thwarted by meteoric weapons, and dispellable by an enemy wizard.

In terms of balance, do you think it would be better if I removed the option for extra DR, and maybe made the Vow mandatory?

Pursuivant · 11-02-2018, 09:07 PM

Good addition.

If you want to model low-level spellcasters from That Other Game, remove DR giving them additional points to spend on IQ and magical advantages.

Add levels of DR, limited as you describe, to the list of optional advantages, but with a limit of 1 level of DR per "n" base character points.

To handle the disparity in potential damage absorption between unarmored wizards and unarmored fighters like barbarians or martial artists allow first-line fighter types to buy additional levels of DR (Limited: Tough Skin, Ablative) which is a cheap way of creating a meat shield.

If you want to model the inherent saving-throw weaknesses of The Other Game's "magic users," give them levels of Susceptibility to poison and disease, as well as middling to low HT, DX, and ST scores.

~~evileeyore~~ · 11-03-2018, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

It lets the wizard have up to 5 natural DR (which is half-Ogre Barbarian range), which is also more effective than Tough Skin (thanks to Force Field).

DR 5 is small potatoes.

Granted as a Forcefield it's a fully loaded small potato.

Quote:

It doesn't do anything to discourage stacking that DR with the magic DR from armor either (the armor DR wouldn't help, but magic DR on robes would add).

The DR enchantment on the armor won't stack with the Forcefield as it's armor...

Quote:

This seems to put the Wizard in a place that he shouldn't be in a dungeon crawl--safe in harm's way, with no significant drawbacks.

Most Wizards I've seen are rolling with DR3 walking in, and hit 5 pretty fast. Even if it's just from Enchanted Heavy Leather and the Armor spell.

Quote:

I haven't seen a lot of them wearing significant amounts of armor.

That's because FP is no longer based on ST. Back in 3e now...

Quote:

The Armor spell would provide 1 DR with no maintenance cost for any DF Wizard...

At skill 20, yes. And yes, many DF Wizards roll in the door with this.

Quote:

If the 'spells on' penalty is onerous, you might allow a Perk like "Habitual Spell" that makes one spell, when cast on yourself, not count for the 'spells maintained' penalty.

Reduced Footprint from Thaumatology Magical Styles, is the Perk you're looking for. But it's not available for 'by the book' DF or DFRPG.

Quote:

That seems much more "in genre", in that it's not only mana-dependent, but detectable by magic, thwarted by meteoric weapons, and dispellable by an enemy wizard.

I suspect that that is what Cowrie has Mana-Sensitive in there for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowrie

In terms of balance, do you think it would be better if I removed the option for extra DR, and maybe made the Vow mandatory?

I think the Vow is double dipping. It's a "I won't be wearing armor anyway so here's some free points from a meaningless disadvantage!"

Also, swap 'Mana Sensitive' for 'Magical', same %. Magical is the Power Modifier used in DF for anything powered by magic.

Other than that, everything else is fine... but why are you putting Enhanced Dodge and Temperature Tolerance in there? If they're meant to be 'upgrades' from the Forcefield, they should also get Power Modifier, and maybe a "Only While Forcefield is active, -20%"...

Cowrie · 11-03-2018, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I think the Vow is double dipping. It's a "I won't be wearing armor anyway so here's some free points from a meaningless disadvantage!"

Fair point. Maybe I should remove that fully rather than making it mandatory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Also, swap 'Mana Sensitive' for 'Magical', same %. Magical is the Power Modifier used in DF for anything powered by magic.

Is that so? In DF11, various wizard power-ups note the Power Modifier as Mana Sensitive. It's Powers and Supers that replaces Mana Sensitive with Magical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Other than that, everything else is fine... but why are you putting Enhanced Dodge and Temperature Tolerance in there? If they're meant to be 'upgrades' from the Forcefield, they should also get Power Modifier, and maybe a "Only While Forcefield is active, -20%"...

They were meant as basic survivability upgrades for any unarmored adventurer, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to make them part of the force field. Wouldn't both power modifier and that Accessibility be double-dipping, though? I actually already thought about giving Temperature Tolerance at least the Power Modifier, but decided against it because it would be a limitation without any point break, and IME, players tend to hate that.

~~evileeyore~~ · 11-03-2018, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowrie

Is that so? In DF11, various wizard power-ups note the Power Modifier as Mana Sensitive. It's Powers and Supers that replaces Mana Sensitive with Magical.

Ah, I got them backwards.

Quote:

Wouldn't both power modifier and that Accessibility be double-dipping, though?

Kinda... maybe. But throwing the PM in the mix means it's clearly affectable by magic, even if the Forcefield is up.

Not sure what effects could affect them at that point... but... /shrug.

scc · 11-04-2018, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowrie

In Dungeon Fantasy, wizards and other casters typically need armor to survive a dungeon crawl, and can cast while wearing armor without issue. However, popular media often depicts wizards clad in robes with no defensive value, and scantily clad sorceresses. Not to mention, That Other Game makes it so that magic-users are actively hampered by armor.

Have or ever considered that mages might be wearing armor under their robes? Or that any leather those sorceresses are wearing might be armor? Or that D&D not letting wizard wear armor caused balance issues?

Beyond that, Thaumatology talks about is on page 28, if you're going to use those rules in a game I'd suggest that you take the Limitations mentioned on Magery and apply them, even if they are universal.

Cowrie · 11-04-2018, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scc

Beyond that, Thaumatology talks about is on page 28, if you're going to use those rules in a game I'd suggest that you take the Limitations mentioned on Magery and apply them, even if they are universal.

If you'll look at the template I presented, you'll see that I did use one of the limitations from Thaumatology.

11-02-2018, 06:55 PM	#1
Cowrie Join Date: Aug 2017	[DF] The Unarmored Spellcaster In Dungeon Fantasy, wizards and other casters typically need armor to survive a dungeon crawl, and can cast while wearing armor without issue. However, popular media often depicts wizards clad in robes with no defensive value, and scantily clad sorceresses. Not to mention, That Other Game makes it so that magic-users are actively hampered by armor. In that spirit, I’d like to share a lens that changes DF spellcasters to be both limited by armor, and better able to survive dungeons without it. The text references Magery, but the advantages Bardic Talent, Deathliness, Demonic Attunement, and all forms of Elemental Influence are all at root forms of Magery, and the adventurers using those advantages get the same change in point value per level. Technically, the limitation could also be applied to Power Investiture for druids, clerics and shamans, but but such “divine casters” are traditionally more likely to use armor. Unarmored Spellcaster +3 points Advantages: DR 2 (Doesn’t Stack With Armor, -20%; Force Field, +20%; Mana-Sensitive, -10%) [9] ● Add the limitation, Encumbrance Penalty on Spells, -20%* to all Magery. This changes Magery 3 [35] to Magery 3 (Encumbrance Penalty on Spells, -20%) [29] for -6 points. Additional Magery now costs 2 points less per level. ● To the list of options, add: Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12], DR 3-5 (Doesn’t Stack With Armor, -20%; Force Field, +20%; Mana-Sensitive, -10%) [4.5/level], Enhanced Dodge 1 [15], and Temperature Tolerance 1-2 [1/level]. Disadvantages: Add Vow (Never wear armor) [-15] to the list of options. Skills: If desired, you may replace any points in Shield or Shield (Buckler) with points in Cloak (DX/A). * From Dungeon Fantasy Denizens - Barbarians. From Thaumatology. *Bards, having only 2 levels of Bardic Talent, only save 4 points, giving this lens a value of +5 points for them. What does everyone think?

11-02-2018, 08:12 PM	#2
Mister Negative Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Most definitely alone	Re: [DF] The Unarmored Spellcaster It works mechanically, but I'm not fond of the impact on the game. It lets the wizard have up to 5 natural DR (which is half-Ogre Barbarian range), which is also more effective than Tough Skin (thanks to Force Field). It doesn't do anything to discourage stacking that DR with the magic DR from armor either (the armor DR wouldn't help, but magic DR on robes would add). This seems to put the Wizard in a place that he shouldn't be in a dungeon crawl--safe in harm's way, with no significant drawbacks. Speaking as a guy running a game, I would want the wizard to be cautiously avoiding combat, and the other delvers keen to be keep him out of the fight as well. I don't have a lot of experience running DF (plenty running GURPS in general), but, while wizards CAN wear armor, I haven't seen a lot of them wearing significant amounts of armor. I have seen them wearing a little bit of armor with significant amounts of magic on it, but that seems in the spirit of "bracers of armor' and 'robes of protection' tropes. None of the people playing wizards in my games have been willing to spend the cash and fatigue to load up in plate, or brigandine, or anything. The Armor spell would provide 1 DR with no maintenance cost for any DF Wizard, and a DF Wizard with more than 3 levels of Magery (or a higher IQ than 15) could pretty easily hit skill 20 with it for 2 DR with no maintenance cost. If the 'spells on' penalty is onerous, you might allow a Perk like "Habitual Spell" that makes one spell, when cast on yourself, not count for the 'spells maintained' penalty. That seems much more "in genre", in that it's not only mana-dependent, but detectable by magic, thwarted by meteoric weapons, and dispellable by an enemy wizard. __________________ Build a man a fire and he's warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

11-02-2018, 09:07 PM	#5
Pursuivant Join Date: Apr 2005	Re: [DF] The Unarmored Spellcaster Good addition. If you want to model low-level spellcasters from That Other Game, remove DR giving them additional points to spend on IQ and magical advantages. Add levels of DR, limited as you describe, to the list of optional advantages, but with a limit of 1 level of DR per "n" base character points. To handle the disparity in potential damage absorption between unarmored wizards and unarmored fighters like barbarians or martial artists allow first-line fighter types to buy additional levels of DR (Limited: Tough Skin, Ablative) which is a cheap way of creating a meat shield. If you want to model the inherent saving-throw weaknesses of The Other Game's "magic users," give them levels of Susceptibility to poison and disease, as well as middling to low HT, DX, and ST scores.