When Modular Abilities Cost Less

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

But it's a cyberpunk staple- skill chips and "I know kung fu" downloading. What would you do for them?

A few thoughts;

A) Infinites and unstoppable attacks are also staples of certain stories, yet GURPS intentionally avoids them.
B) Objects don't often cost points. Being a cyborg that can plug in skill chips can both be things that must be bought with money instead of points. (However, being able to buy skills with money is it's own issue)
C) Skill chips is absolutely a downside that is always present with this power.

I'm also not saying that it's wholly a bad idea. I'm saying that it's taking something that isn't true (Skills can be bought as Alternative Abilities) and making it true. Modular Abilities that allow skills effectively turns them into AAs. Is that itself fair?

Now, to be fair, I'll address my own points;

A) GURPS doesn't like them but you can still build them (or close enough). I built an indestructible super through clever use of Unkillable, Regeneration, a handful of immunities, the right perks, etc. You can buy Affliction 21 (Heart Attack) and work with the GM so that the only things that can resist it have No Vitals. I've even allowed things like "Infinite DR" against certain attacks by figuring out the max possible damage the GM thinks can happen to you, then doubling it and saying it's infinite.

B) Chips and cybernetics can be money, but what about the samurai that summons spirits from famous katanas? That's effectively the same advantage (it might be bought as it was!) but it doesn't make sense to spend money on those (especially if it's only katanas that don't have an asking price). That would have to be bought as an advantage, of some sort. Then again, that could also just be Magery if those katanas were enchanted from being legendary or an Unusual Background that allows use of something those katanas have.

I just realized that Preparation Required might restrict MA to working for one minute. Many limitations on use change the underlying trait from "always on" to "one minute". That might be where the cheese is coming from. If that's not true, then it probably makes more sense to take "Immediate Preparation Required" and it just takes that hour to prepare things, no need for the other limitations.

[AlexanderHowl]

Modular Ability is a 'use' ability rather than a 'sustained' ability. You use it to allocate a pool of point, it is not the pool of points. So, in the case of Preparation Required, you are preparing to allocate the pool of points, not preparing to use the pool of points. It is the same with Backlash, Costs FP, Takes Extra Time, Trigger, etc, the limitation applies to when you are allocating the pool of points rather than when you are using the pool of points (the exception being Limited Use, which specifically effects how often you get to use the pool of points before you have to reallocate them according to page 71 of Characters).

For example, a wizard could have Super-Memorization 40 (Costs FP, 10 FP, -50%; Limited Use, 1 use, -40%; Mental and Social, +50%; Requires IQ roll, -10%; Takes Extra Time 2, -20%; Trait-Limited, Advantages Only, -10%) [25]. After an hour of ritual preparation and a cost of 10 FP, he or she could make an IQ roll to allocate his or her 40 points of mental or social advantages in the form of a spell. He or she would get one 'use' of the mental or social advantage before it disappeared. Until he or she used the mental or social advantage though, it would potentially exist forever.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

For example, let us say that a character possesses five Super-Memorization slots with a capacity of 40 CP each, and each with the limitations of Preparation Required, 1 hour, -50%, Takes Extra Time 2, -20%, and Trait-Limited, Skills Only, -10%.


...Third, how would you deal with a player who made a legal character that exploited this phenomena?

I use modular abilities all the time, and skills, including skills only, are absolutely a legitimate way to run things.



Time modifiers and most accessibility modifiers break when used on modular abilities. If a player wants to tweak with time and accessibility, I'll go to page 63 of powers and we'll work out the time limitations in the base cost of the power.



I generally allow the skills only limitation, if only because its in the book.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Time modifiers and most accessibility modifiers break when used on modular abilities.

Time to configure modifiers have relevance when the duration of the configuration is harshly limited (with "harshly limited" defined relative to the things that can go in it - use it for one roll and then the points are automagically freed up and you have to reconfigure again counts for everything IMO). But that's a thing that requires babysitting or a lot of specialized wording that nobody's tried to write yet.

Accessibility needs to be carefully groomed as well. An accessibility that disables your Modular Ability (freeing up the points in the process) is pretty safe; if it doesn't free up the points, but prevents reconfiguring the MA, that's also valid although probably worth less. If it merely prevents access to the trait in the MA, then it likely belongs on the traits inside the Modular Ability instead.

[somecallmetim]

A lot of the percentile modifiers for modular abilities seem like they are "double dipping" with the price reductions for taking time, being interruptible, having a smaller ability set, etc.


I start with the 5 per point/7 per slot price and modify it solely with percentile limitations first. Then I build it again using the guidelines in Powers about pricing points and slots based on their flexibility with no percentile modifiers other than a power modifier, and possibly one of Physical, Physical Only, Social, or Social Only. Then I use whichever price looks fairest for the final ability.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

For example, let us say that a character possesses five Super-Memorization slots with a capacity of 40 CP each, and each with the limitations of Preparation Required, 1 hour, -50%, Takes Extra Time 2, -20%, and Trait-Limited, Skills Only, -10%.

Takes Extra Time and Preparation Required cannot be put together. The later invalidates the former.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Time modifiers and most accessibility modifiers break when used on modular abilities. If a player wants to tweak with time and accessibility, I'll go to page 63 of powers and we'll work out the time limitations in the base cost of the power.

That's how I deal with Modular Abilities and time tweaking as well.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

they are only spending 25 CP for 40 CP worth of skills that they can use without restriction after allocation.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Modular Ability is a 'use' ability rather than a 'sustained' ability. You use it to allocate a pool of point, it is not the pool of points.

The second point is correct, which illustrates the error in the OP. You have to be careful to distinguish between limitations on the slot, versus limitations on the abilities that go into that slot. When you say that the Prep Required (etc) only affects the time to reconfigure skills, you're saying that the discount only applies to the slot cost -- which, as you say, is not the pool.

Limitations that apply to the entire pool are a shorthand way of writing Limitations that apply to every ability that might be configured in that pool. You'd get the same point costs if you had a GM design rule "... and anything used in this pool has to have Prep Required, 1 hour, because that's the way it works". Instead of a 40-point pool costing only 25 CP, you have a pool that can take only 25-point (net) abilities, which applying those Limitations to a 40-point ability would produce. It's perhaps easier to do the math on a bunch of 40-point abilities plus some "unpaid for" Limitations that come from the slot to fit into 25 rather than being listed in each and every ability, but it works out the same way.

If you want the prep time to apply only to the time to swap skills, then you apply it to the slot cost (5 points), not the pool cost (3 points / point). Actually using the skill doesn't take any extra time (unless that particular ability does have its own Limitation added in).

If you want the discount on the full 40 points of abilities, you have to apply the Limitation to the pool -- which is to say every ability that gets configured in that pool. Every use of that skill would take a hour of setup beforehand*. Pool Limitations are like a Power Modifier in this respect. Because your ability is "magic", X, Y, and Z are true about any spell. Because your ability goes into this pool, X, Y, and Z are true about any such ability.

--
* Sounds like me trying to do handyman tasks around the house. Review videos for a hour on how to install drywall anchors, which actually takes five minutes...

[AlexanderHowl]

Modifiers apply to the total cost of Modular Abilities and effect the entire cost, not just the slot cost (unless there is an errata that I am unaware of). Otherwise, I could just apply the +150% for Mental, Physical, and Social abilities and a +50% Cosmic to the 5 point slot cost of Super-Memorization (increasing cost per slot to 15 points) and just eat the cost of the 3 points per point of allocated abilities without any worry. At that point, I could spend 105 CP for 30 CP that could be allocated to any type of ability through studying the appropriate spell.

As for combining Preparation Required and Takes Extra Time not being allowed on the same ability, where does it say that? Preparation Required is the amount of time required to prepare a use of the ability while Takes Extra Time is the amount of time required to use an ability, so they influence completely different aspects.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

As for combining Preparation Required and Takes Extra Time not being allowed on the same ability, where does it say that? Preparation Required is the amount of time required to prepare a use of the ability while Takes Extra Time is the amount of time required to use an ability, so they influence completely different aspects.

See below.

Originally Posted by GURPS Basic pg 115, Takes Extra Time:

You can only apply this limitation to abilities that require time to activate and that work fast enough to be useful in an emergency (e.g., combat). This is up to the GM, who is free to restrict this limitation to advantages that take only 1 or 2 seconds to activate.

By this reading, I wouldn't allow Takes Extra Time on Modular Abilities at all, unless said abilities were of small scope (no more than 2-5 points to allocate).

And needing to take an hour to prep takes it cleanly out of "emergency use" time frames.


[EDIT]
Note, I know of the examples in RAW of Takes Extra Time being applied in manners that break that. Doesn't change my view in this case. Despite that, Modular has come up a few times, and each time the advice is the same, Do Not Allow Modular Abilities To Give More Points Than It Costs.

In fact, most people advise not to drop below a 2:1 price scheme.
[/EDIT]

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

By this reading, I wouldn't allow Takes Extra Time on Modular Abilities at all, unless said abilities were of small scope (no more than 2-5 points to allocate).

If you have a 40 point Modular Slot you can still shift only 2-4 points into a necessary skill when the need arises. There's nothing saying that you have to fill the "slot" to the maximum, just that the size of the slot is the maximum points you can shift.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

And needing to take an hour to prep takes it cleanly out of "emergency use" time frames.

There's nothing stopping you from preparing ahead of time and shifting character points "instantly" when the need arises. You could take the extra hour in the morning and can wait to shift the points until the evening, when the need arises, and at the standard rate of 1 sec/point.

"You can use a prepared ability normally – either immediately or at a later time."