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Old 02-14-2010, 12:05 PM   #21
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by crimhead View Post
In these situations, it's virtually as good as the old wand of dowsing from the card game. That card and its equivalents were not included in the board game - presumably because they're grossly overpowered even when everyone had an equal chance of drawing it.
There are hundreds of cards that weren't included in the board game. Your inference isn't supported by evidence. Since "discard diving" cards are included in pretty much every Munchkin set, I think it's more likely that they weren't put in Quest for the simple reason that there were other cards Steve wanted more, not that he thinks the mechanic is broken.
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Old 02-14-2010, 06:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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There are hundreds of cards that weren't included in the board game. Your inference isn't supported by evidence. Since "discard diving" cards are included in pretty much every Munchkin set, I think it's more likely that they weren't put in [B]Quest[B] for the simple reason that there were other cards Steve wanted more, not that he thinks the mechanic is broken.
I admit I am speculating, and you could well be right. But I'm not speculating without evidence. Your use of 'think', and 'likely' indicate that you are speculating too?

I'm not sure what you mean by "discard diving" though. Does this refer to any ability which gives you an automatic win with all the treasure rewards but no level rewards?

Part of my evidence is the fact that the wizard no longer has the power to banish the monsters and steal their treasure. Of course this is not conclusive evidence, because other classes have had their powers changed too, but it is supporting evidence - be it weak or be it strong.

(Incidentally, am I the only person who found the wizard was the most powerful class by far in the base Munckin card game? You could find a huge monster, throw on some enhancers, and pitch for a horde of treasure cards. I was delighted to see no such mechanic in MQ.)

As for this type of card being included in just about every set, I'm don't agree that this refutes my speculation. With the monster mobs often appearing in MQ, Wand Of Dowsing could easily be seen as broken in MQ but not so in regular Munchkin. Indeed the fact that such cards were a staple in the card games indicates further evidence that just maybe they are lacking in the board game for a reason.

I may never know for sure, but if future MQ expansions continue to avoid that mechanic, my case will be stronger. If they do include it, I'll be disproved.
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Old 02-14-2010, 06:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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But 12 or 13 of them are totally irrelevant to this discussion as they don't provide any combat bonus. The remaining 10 cards are less than nine per cent of the treasure deck. They are not a big factor in the game at all.
I just dug thru the deck and agree with the 10 count. Handy Hole Grenade works instantly, the others are buffs. (And note Monster-Ade is not relevant here, it's not one of the 10.)

Taking that strategy of playing nothing at the start, going in a room at 1 Level.
The die roll makes you level 20 to 70. Add a +5 to the combat and your possible totals are: 70, 80, 90, 01, 11, 21. Half of those are going to win no matter the opponent. The 21 will take out most of the monsters in the game. The 11 wins a decent amount of the time, too.
(and many things not beatable by the 21 would probably ignore you, just try the next monster draw.)
(further, if it's looking iffy thanks to some modifiers, you probably will then have treasure to spare to offer an ally to cover your 1/6 failure chance.)

So let's sum all this up...
Odds an opponent draws a thrown modifier.
Odds the Reversal player does not draw a one-time modifier themself.
Number of opponents still in range when you move to the room - some will have moved another direction, and how many were in the game to start?
Odds the monster is high enough to still have a chance after the reversal.
Odds the die roll stacking on the Munchkin's 6 is actually going to be a number that makes a difference once reversed.

Anyone want to take a guess at the odds of all those stars aligning? Or take odds on how many sample hands I would have to draw to find one that counters a first turn reversal?
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:35 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

If you feel that the card is too strong, rather than argue about it and then throw around specious logic that would get you an F in a logic class or on any attempt to write a geometric proof, just tear up the cards and don't use them in your game. I've seen some posts in the last few days that seem to be more about swagger than anything else and this is not the place for it.
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

Or....you can send them to me....lol....


Since I use one for me and one for the Monster, I thought about putting the other one in the deck for anyone to get.

I don't think it is too powerful in normal Munchkin. I've had it help me, and then I've played it and got screwed. I am wanting to try it with Quest though, to see how the dice affect it.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:50 AM   #26
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Taking that strategy of playing nothing at the start, going in a room at 1 Level...

Anyone want to take a guess at the odds of all those stars aligning? Or take odds on how many sample hands I would have to draw to find one that counters a first turn reversal?
I won't bother working out any odds. But I think using this on your first fight might be a bit wasteful. You should consider the chance that your first monster is one you can beat anyway, or one you wouldn't bother blowing your RoF cards on in the first place. It's hardly worth using RoF for one level and random treasure. You want to wait for a real baddie I think.

The first turn is also where your most likely to be in range of a one shot. I'd be inclined to wait till I'm out or range of anyone with any showing one shots or face down treasures.

Last edited by crimhead; 02-16-2010 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:52 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
If you feel that the card is too strong, rather than argue about it and then throw around specious logic that would get you an F in a logic class or on any attempt to write a geometric proof, just tear up the cards and don't use them in your game. I've seen some posts in the last few days that seem to be more about swagger than anything else and this is not the place for it.
We can't all be geometry majors - everybody makes mistakes when trying to reason. If you think somebody is presenting their case illogically, why not critique it? Calling an argument fallacious without citing it's weak points won't earn anybody an A in a logic class either.

If your not interested in debating the power level of RoF, why does it bother you if other people are? The forum rules encourage expressing our opinions and attacking the views of others as long as we don't attacker the people (which nobody has). You make me feel unwelcome to express opinions which are contrary to those held by the forum moderators.

As for throwing the card away, I'm not sure where this is coming from. Space Knight wants to house rule it to better balance it (balance according to his opinion an taste), and I want to keep six copies in my game so everyone can start with one. I don't think RoF is too powerful at all if everyone starts with one - rather it leads to some very interesting dynamics. I'd love to discuss those interactions in another thread sometime. :)
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:09 AM   #28
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

I kind of think Munchkin needs a third forum option myself, where we could just simply debate rule dynamics, or just simply chat with each other about Munchkinly things, and then keep the two existing forums as rules and rulings only. There has been a few times myself I enjoyed debating back and forth on a card but got proverbially smacked to stop it.

Though I can see where it would be frustrating for Erik and Andrew once a ruling has been made; kind of like we are wasting their time and I understand that completely as they are busy and a ruling has been made.

On the card though, I think the randomness of the dice counters the throwable one shots and in normal Munchkin you can use one shots at any time.

But, yeah, I can definately see situations where unless you have just the right card, it won't be stopped. I try to save it for the last turn to let me win the game myself. Never pulled it off that way either....lol.....
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Old 02-16-2010, 04:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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Though I can see where it would be frustrating for Erik and Andrew once a ruling has been made; kind of like we are wasting their time and I understand that completely as they are busy and a ruling has been made.
I think it is more for the benefit of players trying to find an official ruling. If an official ruling is made in the middle of a thread which goes on and on, players are going to believe the rule is unresolved and ask again. This forum is a great tool for rules clarifications and I can't believe what a great job Andrew and Erik do. If you don't like a ruling, the best thing to do is post your personal solution in the House Rules and let the discussion rest as official. Though RoF is a new card, I'm sure a lot of the cards have been questioned numerous times and Andrew and Eric hear the same old arguments again and again and know they are not going to change their minds.

I don't have this card yet, but honestly the die roles could probably screw you over more so with it than without it, so to me the card seems more silly than game breaking...

Just my opinion, of course...

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Old 02-16-2010, 05:45 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is Reversal of Fortune to powerful?

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I think it is more for the benefit of players trying to find an official ruling. If an official ruling is made in the middle of a thread which goes on and on, players are going to believe the rule is unresolved and ask again. This forum is a great tool for rules clarifications and I can't believe what a great job Andrew and Erik do. If you don't like a ruling, the best thing to do is post your personal solution in the House Rules and let the discussion rest as official. Though RoF is a new card, I'm sure a lot of the cards have been questioned numerous times and Andrew and Eric hear the same old arguments again and again and know they are not going to change their minds.

I don't have this card yet, but honestly the die roles could probably screw you over more so with it than without it, so to me the card seems more silly than game breaking...

Just my opinion, of course...

Peace
I didn't really mean that I wanted to argue against an official ruling (which I don't think there is one in this thread). I wouldn't do that....I just like to chat and debate for fun, kind of like what is going on in this very thread. People are just talking.

I really see your point though about the official rulings....that's why I'd love another place to just chit chat and such, no rulings at all.
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