Stealth vs. SM

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Spartan506

I mean, the real question here is, "Is a giant, when standing still and behind a huge rock/tree/whatever, noisier when trying to be quiet than a regular human?" If so, apply a penalty. If not--if the giant doesn't breathe any louder than a normal sized human--then don't. Whatever works in your campaign. For me, I note that they do not have stealth, and for trying to be quiet, they're defaulting probably around a 6 or 7. I'm thinking that since they usually aren't inclined to hide from everyone--instead, everyone hides from them!--they probably don't bother learning how to be stealthy. YMMV.

[Edit: When I say "they do not have stealth," I'm referring to DFRPG Monsters 2 giants. Other GURPS campaigns may differ.]

I'd say the noise they make is amplified by their size. So yeah all else being equal the sound of their breathing is louder then the sound of smaller creatures breathing. However breathing still isn't very loud so it's all relative in terms of action and size.

I get the point about why would SM6-7 giants need to hide so it's not a problem. But that's not the only scenario where a SM+1 or greater creature my or may not attempt to hide.

On top of that SM+ is not the only direction this works in, a SM-6* mouse will make less noise than a SM0 human




*cant actualy remeber the SM of mice

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*cant actualy remeber the SM of mice

Varies a bit, but SM-8 (1/10th yard, or 3.6"; note this omits tail length*) I think is typical. Really, they kind of bridge the gap between SM-8 and SM-7 (1/7th yard, or a bit over 5.14"). SM-6 is more the size of a rat (who again kinda bridge a gap, SM-6 - 1/5th yard or 7.2" - to SM-5 - 1/3rd yard or 12" or 1').

But, yes, an SM-6 rat absolutely makes less noise than an SM+0 human. Typically this would be represented with Silence, but if using SM in calculations, this may not be necessary.

*Including tail length will generally make mice around SM-6 and rats around SM-4, but I don't think it's appropriate for something with such a skinny tail. Why should a hamster of comparable body size be -2 to see/hit compared to a mouse?

[Gumby Bush]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

On top of that SM+ is not the only direction this works in, a SM-6* mouse will make less noise than a SM0 human




*cant actualy remeber the SM of mice

DF5 p.24 has a Rat with Silence 2 and SM-7. That suggests that, at least by RAW, SM and how much sound one makes don't relate.

One might say that every -3 to SM requires a level of Silence and every +2 to SM requires a level of Noisy (to pull what are essentially random numbers out), but that has an additional value over the feature of SM.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

DF5 p.24 has a Rat with Silence 2 and SM-7. That suggests that, at least by RAW, SM and how much sound one makes don't relate.

In theory, this could be a similar case to the DF Pixie's Reduced Consumption (which is insufficient for them to survive off crumbs and dewdrops - unless you also scale their food consumption down with SM for free) - a rat is even quieter than its SM indicates. In practice, we have the previously linked Krommpost that tells us SM isn't a consideration for Hearing checks.

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

One might say that every -3 to SM requires a level of Silence and every +2 to SM requires a level of Noisy (to pull what are essentially random numbers out), but that has an additional value over the feature of SM.

Those are workable guidelines, although I'd want to look at more small creatures before committing. Note your suggestion for higher SM works out as +1 to hear per +1 to SM, but staggered to only increase on even SM's; I'd allow a half-level of Noisy for [1] for odd-SM characters. Honestly, I suspect just having it scale linearly with SM for both cases would work fine, it's just that continuing to treat SM as a feature further unbalances high-vs-low-SM.

[Gumby Bush]

Originally Posted by Varyon

In theory, this could be a similar case to the DF Pixie's Reduced Consumption (which is insufficient for them to survive off crumbs and dewdrops - unless you also scale their food consumption down with SM for free).

Incidentally, do we have official confirmation that reduced SM reduces consumption for free? Didn't see it in uFAQ or oFAQ, Space, or Basic...

Those are workable guidelines, although I'd want to look at more small creatures before committing. Note your suggestion for higher SM works out as +1 to hear per +1 to SM, but staggered to only increase on even SM's; I'd allow a half-level of Noisy for [1] for odd-SM characters. Honestly, I suspect just having it scale linearly with SM for both cases would work fine, it's just that continuing to treat SM as a feature further unbalances high-vs-low-SM.

Yup, I'd be happy to go along with Noisy as +/-1 to the rolls instead of +/-2 and [-1/level]. Not sure why that's not how it was written in the first place...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

Incidentally, do we have official confirmation that reduced SM reduces consumption for free? Didn't see it in uFAQ or oFAQ, Space, or Basic...

It's in Bio Tech, although I don't think it explicitly states it's free, just more "here's how much a resized creature needs to eat, relative to the original." This thread makes it clear (with the Krommpost and PKpost; I believe the latter was officially Assistant Line Editor at the time) for how it works for DF Pixies, at least, with implications this it's meant to be the general rule. Yet another nail for the coffin that should contain "SM is a Feature."

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Varies a bit, but SM-8 (1/10th yard, or 3.6"; note this omits tail length*) I think is typical. Really, they kind of bridge the gap between SM-8 and SM-7 (1/7th yard, or a bit over 5.14"). SM-6 is more the size of a rat (who again kinda bridge a gap, SM-6 - 1/5th yard or 7.2" - to SM-5 - 1/3rd yard or 12" or 1').

But, yes, an SM-6 rat absolutely makes less noise than an SM+0 human. Typically this would be represented with Silence, but if using SM in calculations, this may not be necessary.

*Including tail length will generally make mice around SM-6 and rats around SM-4, but I don't think it's appropriate for something with such a skinny tail. Why should a hamster of comparable body size be -2 to see/hit compared to a mouse?

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

DF5 p.24 has a Rat with Silence 2 and SM-7. That suggests that, at least by RAW, SM and how much sound one makes don't relate.

One might say that every -3 to SM requires a level of Silence and every +2 to SM requires a level of Noisy (to pull what are essentially random numbers out), but that has an additional value over the feature of SM.

TBH I hadn't thought of Silence! (exotic advantages don't really come up in my games).

If I were being picky I'd say I'm not sure I'd class the fact that small animals are less noisy than large ones is an exotic trait. But if it does the job then it does the job!

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

If I were being picky I'd say I'm not sure I'd class the fact that small animals are make less noisy than large ones is an exotic trait of smaller.

It should be remembered that Exotic simply means "this can normally only be purchased as part of a racial template." Altered SM itself (with the exception of Gigantism/Dwarfism) would also be Exotic.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

DF5 p.24 has a Rat with Silence 2 and SM-7. That suggests that, at least by RAW, SM and how much sound one makes don't relate.

RAW it doesn't. It probably should, and the standard hearing rules should be tossed and replaced with something that follows the SSR table.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by RyanW

It should be remembered that Exotic simply means "this can normally only be purchased as part of a racial template." Altered SM itself (with the exception of Gigantism/Dwarfism) would also be Exotic.

Fair enough!