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Old 01-07-2018, 09:27 PM   #251
Cat
 
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Oooh, very good news!

SJG, while revisiting these rules, it would be nice if you can work out a balance flaw in the original. Minor flaw, we still enjoyed playing it —and I used the engine for a Super Hero version which was much easier to play than Champions!

We ran quite a number of Death [Laboratory] Tests: Fighters that started out with Max Dexterity lived longer and levelled-up much better than those that started with Max Strength. Max Strength characters died the quickest.
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:59 PM   #252
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Is that a glitch, or just an observation? How did characters in the middle fare? I would not call either a max ST or a max DX character "optimized." Tell us more about the Science Death Test - I'm interested.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:48 AM   #253
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

It's pretty easy to show, either with enough arena fights or just a relevant statistical analysis, that either extreme is similarly poor strategy (and that a 10/14 combatant is't much better).

One of the strengths of the game is that there is a surprisingly large trade-space where starting Melee characters (24 pts in ST+DX) are different from one another, and have advantages in various tactical situations and equipment match ups, but that none are fundamentally stronger across all or most situations. I've looked at this issue in some detail and am pretty confident this is true.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:15 PM   #254
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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I would not call either a max ST or a max DX character "optimized." Tell us more about the Science Death Test - I'm interested.
That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually levelling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and levelling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:33 PM   #255
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually levelling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and levelling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
That's probably true, especially if you follow the rules as written and allow the high DX low ST character to wear any armour they want to. This allows them to compensate to an extent for their low strength in terms of damage resistance. To be realistic, you'd need to be above average in strength (12+) to wear heavy armour effectively, as anyone who's tried it will tell you. I'd penalise weak characters for wearing such armour just as very strong characters get an advantage (Adv Melee). That would bring back the balance a bit more.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:49 PM   #256
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Another reminder to take rules issues to the Roleplaying in General group. Thanks.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:52 PM   #257
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat View Post
That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually levelling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and levelling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
It's a pity; I would have loved to have seen the statistical notes on that one.

My experience has been different -- as far as I can tell, it comes down to player style more than the specific attributes selected. High ST characters do better with a certain play style, while high DX characters do better with a different one. Admittedly, someone with an AdjDX of five doesn't stand much chance of winning if the other guy can inflict enough damage to penetrate his armor, but assuming you keep your AdjDx at about 8 or so, the human tank does okay...

I'd be interested in hearing about anything similar done with Wizard -- what do people see as the optimal trade-offs in that one?
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:22 PM   #258
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

My comments on this topic will appear in the parallel 'rules wonk' thread...
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:32 PM   #259
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat View Post
That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually leveling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and leveling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
But it's not true, mainly because they don't tend to do enough damage to win fights. I'm pretty sure you were doing something off. Both from years of playing the game, and from simulations we've run and discussed on the TFT email list, ST 8 DX 16 is not the ultimate 24-point Melee character. There's a healthy equivalence in the middle choices, and the best results in the sims one poster ran (of 1-on-1 duels) was IIRC the ST 11 DX 13 spear user, but not by that great of a margin, and assisted perhaps by some assumptions about the situation.

ST 8 in particular in Melee means you use a Sling (1d-2) and a Dagger (only good in HTH combat, where your low ST will also reduce your damage and your opponent will get +4 to hit you so your DX advantage would be negated).
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:35 PM   #260
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard View Post
Another reminder to take rules issues to the Roleplaying in General group. Thanks.
Andrew, do you consider this discussion of the statistical analysis a "rules discussion?" If so, I apologize for continuing to talk about it here -- it seemed to me it was more a "play balance discussion." But maybe you would actually prefer to see that kind of discussion over there too? I don't want to step on the policy here...
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