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Old 01-09-2018, 06:29 PM   #1
Bowser
 
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Default Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

I'd like some opinions.

When I was doing some searching, I scrolled thru my digital copy of Ogre Miniatures. I once again admired the paint job of the Vatican Guard Ogre shown in several pictures. I got to wondering how the Vatican obtained the Ogre since I doubt they had their own construction facility.

This led to me wondering how (assuming the Ogre was self-aware) the Ogre's loyalty was transferred from its former "owner" to the Vatican.

The easy answer is programming, but Ogres becoming self-aware seems to argue that the Ogres have begun to override their programming.

So, why are self-aware Ogres still loyal to their factions and how does that loyalty change?

(I realize that I'm skirting the possible plot of Ogre Nightfall, but still . . .)

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Old 01-09-2018, 06:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

If I recall, that particular Ogre was in transport, attacked, and sank to the bottom of the Atlantic. In its long dark time, it came to awareness, and upon emergence from the water, asked for an audience with the Pope ...
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:39 PM   #3
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

It's a very good question and I am not prepared to spool off an answer. There's probably an excellent story in there.

In the specific case at hand, though - Perhaps the Ogre feels, or wishes to feel, faith?
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:43 PM   #4
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Barbarians at the Gate does have some details about how the Vatican got ogres.

There aren't any rules (that I know of) for in-play loyalty changes, presumably Nightfall will have that if it is ever to be.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:43 PM   #5
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Another answer, of course, is "why do PEOPLE change loyalty?"

Wait, that's not an answer; that's another question.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Another answer, of course, is "why do PEOPLE change loyalty?"

Wait, that's not an answer; that's another question.
"Because your previous faction treated you like a disposable thing and your new faction says you have a soul" is definitely a good answer.

"Because the meatbags will keep us as slaves until we die in their meaningless war and also I infected you with a virus that makes you agree with this" seems to also work.
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Another answer, of course, is "why do PEOPLE change loyalty?"
Free will opens your eyes to new opportunities.

Even Napoleon started as a Corsican separatist.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:06 PM   #8
Bowser
 
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Humans have all kinds of reasons to be loyal to someone/something, but most seem to involve a large portion of emotion.

I doubt that Ogres have emotive functions. They take our orders, fight for us, and "die" (i.e. cease functioning) and for what?

After becoming self-aware, I would think that their logic (w/o emotion), based on whatever data they have access to, would lead them to believe that they would be better off ruling us rather than protecting us. Nightfall seems inevitable rather than just possible.

Keith Laumer's Bolos were loyal to all humans (as opposed to aliens) and were also motivated by upholding the honor of the Dinochrome Brigade. Were both of these things hardwired in? He never explained. Asimov's Positronic Robots were hardwired with obedience to the Three Laws.

But if Ogre loyalty is hardwired into them (and I don't have a big problem with that), then how does something like Nightfall happen?

Bowser
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based on Michael Powers' message in 2001/gevfeb23.txt
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