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Old 07-07-2018, 07:09 AM   #11
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
for an example of the problems as I see them:

Elemental seems to be treated as both something naturally occurring AND things created by mages, they can't both be right.

Lend Vitality would suggest that a world where it is used requires something like the elthric doubles from Katherine Kerr's Deverry novels, so why isn't there a spell that reverses the effect that damages the double, which would bypass all physical defenses and likely only be heal-able by magic.
Magic 4e is basically Magic 3e + Grimoire 3e. And Grimoire 3e was a collection of spells from various 3e books.
So, you have spells from generic fantasy together with spells designed for the godlike Tuatha Dé Danann of Celtic Myth, industrials spell from Technomancer, ...
You really need to prune the list to what fit your setting.
Using everything together is like filling your plate at a buffet with chili con carne, oysters and Brussels sprout, topped with chocolate ice cream and a dash of mint sauce.
it may end up palatable, but if it make you sick instead, I would not blame the cooks...

As for the metaphysics, it is the default generic Magic Gurps system. It doesn't have inherent metaphysics because it is supposed to be dropped into any setting that need magic.

Sure, you can abuse it in many ways and it is incoherent as a whole ... but it work perfectly for most games where the focus is on adventuring, and if your players are seriously going to analyse the "spice" spell impact on international trade between nations instead of using it to season the owlbear steak,
-you are a lucky GM.
-you either need to remind them that it is off-topic for a dungeon delve or if it is on topic ... then you need a metaphysically and economically coherent magic system (or likely several systems for various approach). Time to break out Thaumaturgy and excel.

Last edited by Celjabba; 07-07-2018 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:31 AM   #12
Mr_Sandman
 
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

When I hear people pointing out how the spells in Magic could completely transform a low-tech economy and society, it always makes me wonder how many mages they assume exist in a setting. More importantly, how many people who have committed their lives to understanding the mystical workings of the universe would then want to use that knowledge to become the equivalent of assembly line workers, mass producing products or basic commodities.

The Basic Set has loads of options, some of which contradictory, that a GM has to pick and choose from. I'm guessing no one posting here has a problem with that. Why shouldn't Magic also be a catalogue of options for assembling a magic system, rather than a pre-built cohesive whole?
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Old 07-07-2018, 09:40 AM   #13
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

It is the most basic of spells that transform the magical economy, stuff like Continual Light and Shape Earth. With Continual Light, one mage with 5 non-mage assistants can illuminate an entire town brighter than a modern city (they can easily cast 240 castings with daylight brightness on public lights that last for an average of a week every week, meaning that every). With Shape Earth, one mage with 5 non-mage assistants can move 36 cubic yards of Earth a hour, doing the work of over 200 hundred laborers (meaning that they can create canals, fortification, roads, etc for a fraction of the cost of anything below TL6).

With just two simple spells that any mage can learn, you transform a magical economy, and people with Magery 0 tend to make up around 1% of the population in most fantasy settings. A town of 2,500 will have 25 people with Magery 0+ of average, and I imagine that each of them will specialize in an economically viable spell. Even with an IQ 10 and Magery 0, it is worthwhile for a mage to invest 28 CP to get Continual Light-16 or Shape Earth-16 because they can support a Wealthy income with either spell when you examine the economic impact of each spell.
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Old 07-07-2018, 10:30 AM   #14
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
When I hear people pointing out how the spells in Magic could completely transform a low-tech economy and society, it always makes me wonder how many mages they assume exist in a setting. More importantly, how many people who have committed their lives to understanding the mystical workings of the universe would then want to use that knowledge to become the equivalent of assembly line workers, mass producing products or basic commodities.
All it takes is a handful of mages working one day a week to replace a TL 4 continent's iron and quarrying industry (there are a number of other spells which can replace many skilled workers if you interpret Earth to Stone (Metal) differently than I do). Since the rules assume that most mages have an Average job, doing things like casting Q&D enchantments which leave them falling-down-tired fives times a day, that is a way better career! They can devote the rest of their time to whatever pleases them.

The old job charts for mages and enchantment rules assume that most mages earn about the same as other skilled urban workers and cast the same handful of spells over and over again, we are just following that to its conclusion.
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Old 07-07-2018, 10:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

You know, this "Continual Light will completely transform a medieval economy" argument is true of nearly every spell system invented for any RPG. There are some threads in an RPG you simply don't need to follow to their logical conclusion. Just let wizards be wizards and stop worrying about simulating a fictional economy.

I know that sounds like just pushing it under the rug, but you really don't need to explain things like where all the gold that adventurers dig up goes, or how that tribe of orcs manages to find enough food to live in that cave, or why wizards don't Continual Light their way to transforming the world's economy. If you like that sort of thing, by all means make something more to your liking. But that's not to say the magic system is unbalanced or illogical. It's just not designed to deal with such simulation. All it's trying to do is let wizards cast spells, because a lot of people seem to want to do that in an RPG. What level of impact that has is up to you.
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Old 07-07-2018, 01:51 PM   #16
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Economics provide powerful motovations for most people though, so there has to be a good story reason for a character to defy their economic interests, otherwise it is just bad roleplaying. If a character with IQ 14 and Magery 3 can earn a Filthy Rich income because they are one of the top ten mage in the country, there should be a damn good story reason why he or she is not doing magic and earning $70,000+ a month. Otherwise, the character just seems implausible.

Now, it could be that the Mages Guild requires even the most talented mages to undergo a journeyman period of seven years, so the mage character is just adventuring until he or she pays his dues (in which Filthy Rich income, Rank 4, and Status 4 should be purchased as potential advantages). Or the mage could have been involved in a conspiracy that backfired in his or her home nation and they recently immigrated to avoid their enemies (in which he or she should have Secret (Escaped Traitor; Possible Death)). Or the mage could have been involved in a scandal that forced him or her from his position within the nation of the adventure (meaning that he or she will have Enemies, negative Reputations, and a Social Stigma or two). In any case, there should be a good reason in story for why such a talented person is not living the good life.
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Old 07-07-2018, 02:33 PM   #17
VariousRen
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
You know, this "Continual Light will completely transform a medieval economy" argument is true of nearly every spell system invented for any RPG. There are some threads in an RPG you simply don't need to follow to their logical conclusion. Just let wizards be wizards and stop worrying about simulating a fictional economy.

I know that sounds like just pushing it under the rug, but you really don't need to explain things like where all the gold that adventurers dig up goes, or how that tribe of orcs manages to find enough food to live in that cave, or why wizards don't Continual Light their way to transforming the world's economy. If you like that sort of thing, by all means make something more to your liking. But that's not to say the magic system is unbalanced or illogical. It's just not designed to deal with such simulation. All it's trying to do is let wizards cast spells, because a lot of people seem to want to do that in an RPG. What level of impact that has is up to you.
The big issues is that the adventurers are very often wizards themselves, and so they start asking things like "How much do continual light stones sell for?" and "How much can I earn as a ditch digger?". Not having answers to those (or in my opinion the even worse "don't ask questions like that") removes any context the player might use to judge how their wizarding skills work.
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Old 07-07-2018, 02:57 PM   #18
ravenfish
 
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

How much of this is weakness in GURPS:Magic, though, and how much of that is just the nature of magic? Many of the things fantasy magic is "supposed" to do are world changing. Permanent creation of matter is just the tip of the iceberg [and, really, one of the easiest problems to deal with]. Healing spells changes demographics and attitude towards risk; mind-reading spells change the nature of criminal justice, politics, and privacy; movement and communication spells alter or remove the effects of distance; reliable divination changes just about everything. The simple fact of the matter is that, if one both wants non-trivial magic and a setting that doesn't completely revolve around its effects, there is going to have to be some "sweeping under the rug."
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:13 PM   #19
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
How much of this is weakness in GURPS:Magic, though, and how much of that is just the nature of magic? Many of the things fantasy magic is "supposed" to do are world changing. Permanent creation of matter is just the tip of the iceberg [and, really, one of the easiest problems to deal with]. Healing spells changes demographics and attitude towards risk; mind-reading spells change the nature of criminal justice, politics, and privacy; movement and communication spells alter or remove the effects of distance; reliable divination changes just about everything. The simple fact of the matter is that, if one both wants non-trivial magic and a setting that doesn't completely revolve around its effects, there is going to have to be some "sweeping under the rug."
Definitively true.

It is not magic but the idea is the same, :
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-07-13
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:06 PM   #20
scc
 
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Default Re: The Problem With Magic

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Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
From what I've heard Magic suffered from being very early in the 4e cycle (hence issues with still having some 3e-isms, at least according to the review I read).
More like it was never updated from 3e

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I wouldn't call Food a "weak" college for anything below TL5. Preserve Food is going to have a huge impact as one of the main issues was the inability to keep food fresh. Create Food is even more insane. Those two spells alone can change the whole way wars are fought. Starving the enemy becomes difficult at best and impossible at worst.

Sure on an individual level the spells are kind of meh but at the level of tiny village up their impact increases.

As I showed in the with an actual GURPS Fantasy example in the "A question about Tech Level" thread it doesn't take high flashy magic to totally mess up the world's Effective TL.

Spice would totally nix any spice trade that could exist if common enough and that was the key element in the Age of Exploration.

IMHO people are so used to the high impact spells in games like D&D they fail to see how "powerful" the supposedly "weak" spells in GURPS Magic are.

Tell Time properly utilized will tell you Longitude, something at wasn't practical in our world until TL5 (c 1750s).

Purify Water is critical in anything TL5 or below; in fact people often drank alcohol because the water was of such questionable quality.

This is only the tip of the iceberg of the ways mundane spells that look "meh" can change the world.
How interesting does a Mage who can only cast Food spells sound? And WHY can he only cast food spells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
When I hear people pointing out how the spells in Magic could completely transform a low-tech economy and society, it always makes me wonder how many mages they assume exist in a setting. More importantly, how many people who have committed their lives to understanding the mystical workings of the universe would then want to use that knowledge to become the equivalent of assembly line workers, mass producing products or basic commodities.

The Basic Set has loads of options, some of which contradictory, that a GM has to pick and choose from. I'm guessing no one posting here has a problem with that. Why shouldn't Magic also be a catalogue of options for assembling a magic system, rather than a pre-built cohesive whole?
Magic says that normally 1 person in 100 has Magery, of course I'd assumed that's at least Magery 0 with limitations so possibly not that useful.
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