08-06-2012, 02:22 PM | #21 | |||||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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But I also understand the other perspective: You might have these alternatives well in hand, you just find that in this particular situation, which comes up often, and you want to find a way out of it. But examine my discussion with Kuroshima, the different rules we're using and the different tactics we're taking to win, and note that "Feint" isn't the end-all, be-all of the discussion, by any means.
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
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08-06-2012, 02:30 PM | #22 | ||||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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And all of the reverse applies too. You talk about high likely you are to get a critical success, but how likely are you to get a critical failure? The moment it becomes clear that you've screwed a roll, I can move in and take advantage of your weakness. You're relying a lot on luck here, and that means your strategy amounts to "I have 30 points more than you, and I'm sure to roll well eventually!" with a dose of "And if you NEVER EVER change, I can change, and beat you!" That's not really a discussion of the merit of your strategy at hand. In fact, this is the result of your competitive, tactical instincts kicking in. The rest of your discussion isn't actually about the topic at hand, except for this: Quote:
And that's true, but it's not really pertinent. The question is: Do feints dominate fights, and both you and I are saying that they don't.
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
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08-06-2012, 02:41 PM | #23 | |
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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I did a quick read through on the Combat Steps in the basic set books, still, a campaign based on building an ability from your character's Character Sheet, I would really like to hear someone's experience in a dueling system they played in. A made-up example, like the knight choose to ____ instead of Feinting because he has_____. That would really move me forward on creating my world. |
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08-06-2012, 02:53 PM | #24 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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The knight chose to Beat instead of feinting, because he has lots of strength. The knight chose to attack instead of feinting, because he has no time to feint. The knight chose to riposte (with lots of defensive additions) because his skill is inferior to his opponent, but his defensive capability is higher (defense bonuses, retreats, defensive grip, cross-parries, whatever) Another point that's being lost in this discussion, though, is not that feinting is so bad, it's what you do with it afterwards. A feint never killed anybody. That's not what it does. In fact, in my tactical discussion with Kuroshima, the point isn't actually about the feint (I feinted too!) the point is about when we feint and what we do after. I evaluate because I tend to use combos in my game, and if I combo too often, my opponent will get a bonus to my defense, and evaluate is a good choice in my game for many reasons, so I retreat and evaluate while building up skill for a good feint and then I make a single, highly deceptive attack because defeating high defense is my priority Kuroshima is dealing with another situation, one where his skill is often higher than his opponents so feints will almost always result in a benefit, and he doesn't have to deal with people seeing through his repetitive tactic (Incidentally, if you want to avoid repetitive tactics, you need to institute some kind of rule that makes them easier to defend against), and he often faces piles of hit points, so multiple attacks makes more sense because the feint reduces the defense to a non issue, but a single successful hit is unlikely to be enough to floor his opponent well enough that Kuroshima has basically won the fight. Moreover, in DF, you often face multiple enemies, so you don't have time to dick around with Evaluates (while CBR often breaks down into duels, where Evaluate is much handier). The bone of contention between us actually has nothing to do with feint at all, but everything else. We're arguing about what you do before the feint (KUroshima: Nothing, Me: Evaluate), what you do after (Kuroshima: Rapid Strike, me: Deceptive Attack) and how you build your character to take advantage of this (Kuroshima: Extra Attack and Feint, Me: Counter Attack, Grip Mastery and lots of defensive options) You can't really look at the feint and say "But people will do it all the time!" They won't. They must do other things to win. Namely, they must attack. Feint is just a very useful way of getting past defenses, which may or may not be an issue, and certainly won't be the only thing they do. Consider that everyone also Moves, Waits and All-Out Defends under certain circumstances too.
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
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08-06-2012, 03:23 PM | #25 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Germany, Leonberg
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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The way I see it feint should be something that should have its uses but should not be as universally useful as it is at the moment. As I said before I see no reason for a character not to take it. It costs only a few points to get that technique up and it's basically never wrong to do so. |
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08-06-2012, 03:36 PM | #26 |
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
I'm looking more at building your character 'during combat' to play something that's advantageous to their maneuver. These are all pvp, by the way.
And feinting is, your ___ skill vs Jamie's ___skill. So everyone is essentially building their characters to have a better feinting ability? If I, say, force players to build their special ability into one of the poorer combat maneuver, like AoA or Do Nothing, do you think it's a good way to increase varieties in player's dueling decision-making? Or there's already a better way to avoid this, things like deceptive attack and combos, they're not in my basic set books, they sound like something that could really varies players decision making, I would love to know what they are. |
08-06-2012, 03:38 PM | #27 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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Take that Extra Attack away, and you need a spare turn to feint. Your opponent can walk away from feints. It slows your kill-count down, and it's often overkill. Kuroshima doesn't care because he can afford to feint and then mow into an ogre with 3 rapid strikes, which is a worthier use of Extra Attack than simply mowing into an ogre with one attack and three rapid strikes, but if you don't have Extra Attack, this sort of thing doesn't happen. This is why I dislike Kuroshima's contribution to the thread. He makes it sound like Feint is more powerful than it is, but if you actually examine the discussion and mechanics at hand, he's talking about the convergence of Feint with Extra Attack. THAT, together, is what he means in your quote.
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
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08-06-2012, 03:38 PM | #28 |
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
Because removing variables removes effective options cutting it down of course you are going to get your preselected tactic showing up as the best option, because you end up stacking the deck for it.
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08-06-2012, 03:41 PM | #29 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
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08-06-2012, 03:45 PM | #30 |
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
Further more not on is Deceptive Attack in the basic set it is considered by the Authors to be a key component to High Skill melee combat in 4e.
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combat rules, feints |
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