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Old 09-22-2017, 04:15 PM   #41
Stone Dog
 
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

That is the Pathfinder cosmology. Devils serve asmodeus and either used to be celestials who sided with asmodeus in the beginning or they are crafted out of individual mortal soul tormented and stripped of their identity. The end goal for hell is to return existence to a state before there was free will.

Demons are made from the individual sins of mortals. Demons want suffering and destruction, but not really the end of all things because that means no more toys.

Qlippoth are the original inhabitants of the abyss and they are none too fond of demons, so they want to destroy all sapient life so that nobody can sin anymore and make new demons.
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:41 PM   #42
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

In terms of actual play, the important distinctions have to do with what they want and what tactics they can use. Some common subtypes for desires:
  • You have entities that simply desire destruction. Those are by far the easiest to use in a game, and describes most of the demonic creatures in DF2.
  • You have entities that want very particular types of destruction. Other than behaving in idiosyncratic ways, they're similar to the above.
  • You have entities that form pacts with mortals, granting them power in exchange for something or another. This works easily enough in DF, providing a ready source of evil cults and wizards.
  • You have entities that desire corruption, tempting mortals into sin. This does not work well in DF, as it tends to amount to "if you act like an DF character, I get to punish you".
In terms of tactics, the big question is whether the demon physically manifests. Usually it's best for demons in DF to eventually manifest, because otherwise how will the PCs beat it up?
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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In terms of tactics, the big question is whether the demon physically manifests. Usually it's best for demons in DF to eventually manifest, because otherwise how will the PCs beat it up?
Exorcism is the classic. But the really traditional DF tools work great: spells, magic/holy/silver/whatever weapons, blessed incense "poison gas", holy water applied to weapons like bladeblack, that sort of thing.

If it has statistics, the players will find a way to kill it.

If it doesn't have statistics, the players will probably find a way to make the GM wish they had statistics :)
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Old 09-22-2017, 04:56 PM   #44
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Exorcism is the classic. But the really traditional DF tools work great: spells, magic/holy/silver/whatever weapons, blessed incense "poison gas", holy water applied to weapons like bladeblack, that sort of thing.
By 'physically manifest' I mostly mean "it has a counter on the map which you can attack", not that it necessarily has to be vulnerable to mundane weapons.
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Old 09-23-2017, 06:35 AM   #45
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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I would think that a fallen angel would be aristocratic and care about order. They may be arrogant and vain and narcissistic as they would think of them selves as angels which are above the rest of creation. They may want to keep Divine law in place only they just want to oust the ruling gods and rule in their place.

Demons that just came into being may just want destruction and suffering. They may want to destroy Divine law and have survival of the strongest instead. They may just want to bring chaos into the world while fallen angels want to rule it with an iron fist.
What do you really seek? Another class of creature with trademark traits, or a conflict between hellish beings? If the latter, I suggest going the way Kromm suggests:
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The distinction between "entity indigenous to Hell" and "soul trapped in Hell and turned into something awful" is another matter. For sure, damned souls of former mortals aren't the same thing as bad guys that came into being on another plane of existence and never did a hitch as a mortal.
Take as-Sharak: a creature that has once been a wizard, now brainwashed into fighting people like him (and demons brainwash in a rather unpleasant way). Imagine the greatest mage of the ancient world turned into as-Sharak. He would probably keep some of his old consciousness (high Will, maybe Compartmentalized Mind, if you draw from vanilla GURPS), and would hate the Demons of Old and Hellhounds that tortured him. He would seek allies among other as-Sharak, trying to make them recall their mortal life. You could treat Peshkali as his mortal enemy or as hell-bent mortal warriors, and possible allies. The option to build your own blood war is there -- but DFRPG as a product is so young it really shouldn't go into detail like that. That would be too much information for a starting GM.
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:32 AM   #46
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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The option to build your own blood war is there
Agreed. Also, to have different factions of monsters around can be independent of the specifics of the Blood War.

For what it's worth, I want to add two clarifications to what I said:

I didn't touch the angles of Qlippoth or as-Sharak because I did focus in the cosmogonical perspective from earlier posts (mainly from b-dog), and also due to the complexity of more secondary cases (but equally interesting and relevant to the genre), like demons as rotten psychic remnants of dead gods or definitely exhausted cycles, and demons caused by sorcery and curses.

And I wasn't trying to say that there shouldn't be differences and peculiarities among demons (or devils). Also, concerning different cultures, along with the different names for shared notions or entities, the different imageries and other factors can justify different creatures in fantasy RPGs, even if this is easily abused.
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:46 AM   #47
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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By 'physically manifest' I mostly mean "it has a counter on the map which you can attack", not that it necessarily has to be vulnerable to mundane weapons.
Well if it isn't vulnerable to Exorcism or attacks, I don't think it is meaningfully present in the campaign unless it is an indirect threat (which makes it no different from criminal overlords and evil emperors).
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:25 AM   #48
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

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Well if it isn't vulnerable to Exorcism or attacks, I don't think it is meaningfully present in the campaign unless it is an indirect threat (which makes it no different from criminal overlords and evil emperors).
From my reading, that's the opposite of what he clarified his position to be; pardon me Anthony for putting words in your mouth, but it seemed his intent was that, at some point in the fight, it should become susceptible to plain old stabbing/bashing, rather than merely spells, Exorcism, or funky materials.

Now, I'm not sure I actually agree on that point, at least as a general rule. I'm personally fine with things like "only vulnerable to attacks by holy characters, or people with Bless on them" - which, recall, can get knocked off in a fight. Big nasty monsters needing some research or applied lore, and preparation, to conquer is only appropriate in my opinion. A more interesting way of adding a challenge to them than "more hit dice" or "more DR".

That said: going with something like Kromms pattern of an enemy that's virtually invulnerable until you do the McGuffin thing while in combat with it (steal its amulet, recite the summoning ritual backwards, kill all 13 cultists sustaining it) is a fun dramatic approach. An Exorcism is a perfectly good McGuffin thing here, too.
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:17 AM   #49
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

Presumably the possessed person, altar, or teapot can be represented by a miniature.
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Old 09-25-2017, 10:10 AM   #50
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Default Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils

The key thing is really not to have the scene where certain characters are standing around sucking their thumbs because they have absolutely nothing to do. That can be accomplished by having evil cultists or something trying to interfere with your exorcism, of course.
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