Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2006, 12:02 PM   #111
DoctorRomulus
 
DoctorRomulus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Reading, Pennsylvania
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian
So, the Elves screwed themselves by teaching humans how to do magic and otherwise thrive in Yrth, kind of like the Squanto of folklore?

That is, if the original reason for the settlers coming to N America had been the Amerinds wanting somebody to come and slaughter another species for them....
Native americans are another species???!
__________________
Famous Last Words"What's in this room??!!?"

GURPS IS..."undead-cyborg-undead-dragon-cyborg-riders... and their werewolf allies carrying plasma rifles while riding in aircars"
DoctorRomulus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 12:39 PM   #112
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Native americans are another species???!
No, Elves are. And Orcs.

The only comparison being made to Amerinds was with regard to Elves teaching humans magic and survival tips upon their arrival in Yrth being somewhat parallel to the help given by Squanto to English settlers.

The 'slaughter another species' comment had to do with the purpose of the Banestorm being to get rid of the Orcs. Since 'another species' referred to the Orcs in this context, I'm not sure how you leap from there to thinking that anybody is referring to Amerinds as a species distinct from other humans. The worst I can see here is a comparison between Amerinds and Elves, which is a) a very loose one, having only to do with their providing aid to new settlers in their territory, and b) not at all derogatory to either party.
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 12:46 PM   #113
DrTemp
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Germany
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitruvian
[...] The worst I can see here is a comparison between Amerinds and Elves, which is [...] not at all derogatory to either party.
Well, actually... I mean... Native American PC's with bow and arrow do not go on everybody's nerves...
:-)
DrTemp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2006, 12:52 PM   #114
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Well, actually... I mean... Native American PC's with bow and arrow do not go on everybody's nerves...
Well, I'm sure that Elves are equally annoyed by that stereotype - damn that Legolas!
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2006, 01:25 AM   #115
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
I think you're misunderstanding Phil. Making a complaint and suggesting a solution is a good thing, especially if others agree with your complaint and solution, or the resulting discussion leads to other issues/solutions. This is considered feedback.

Making a complaint and agressively defending it against all comers is different. Repeating the complaint multiple times, or propounding your solution without discussion, actually becomes counter-productive. One voice, no matter how loud or how often repeated, is just one customer. One voice, joined by dozens of others in calm, rational agreement, is a market share.

I think that's what Phil is trying to say. Phil, please correct me if I'm off base!
I had to sit back and mull this last post of yours Paul, consider it carefully and determine whether or not I was inferring incorrectly, or perhaps you were specifically implying something. Specifically, the point about, and I quote:

Making a complaint and agressively defending it against all comers is different. Repeating the complaint multiple times, or propounding your solution without discussion, actually becomes counter-productive.

implies to me that I've voiced a complaint - and have been aggressive in defending it. More specifically, it implies that I've been defending a complaint in which others feel it has no merit.

So, to be fair, I'll make two comparisons here for you to view and decide whether or not my defense of my point regarding demographics is warranted or unwarranted.

1) in a room of the flatlander society, an individual who points out the math used by the Greeks to determine the Earth was round - will be laughed at and told he's wrong. It will be a majority of people telling the guy he's wrong - but hey, the so many people in agreement can't be wrong can they?

2) in a room of the scientists including those who have been up in space and seen for themselves - the earth is round, have a flatlander in their midst saying "it is all a hoax".

Either way, you get the result of one individual expressing a point of view that is in a minority. Either way, the collective gets to determine if the individual is "Aggressively defending their position" no? To that end, I must concur. I have posted a viewpoint that the numbers given in BANESTORM on page 84 do not seem to match the history of Yrth as given - and that there is a problem with it. I've also posted that there is a problem with population densities along with an observation on a sociological level, that socieites in danger tend not to spread out, but stay compact for mutual self-defense. Other mitigating factors could include resources, sociological pressures and so forth. I have also pointed out "corrections" for such things - rather than just complain.

At this point, I am left wondering. Am I aggressively defending the original assertion that the population numbers leave something to be desired, or am I defending the assertion that demographics is important enough to consider for a fantasy game world for a game system that seems more and more to be of the philosophy "Hang realism, Drama is King"?

I find this mildly ironic when you consider the "Sticky" GURPS Martial Arts - Call for Experts. Why ask for realism from an expert in martial arts if realism isn't something to strive for? I suspect, that the mood I'm in after reading your post makes me disinclined to believe that my question is anything but rhetorical - I think I already know the answer to the question.

As a final commentary on my participation in this thread:
In high school, I was taught that if I didn't know the answer - to interpolate what the answer might be. Population growth of a historical nature can give us a clue on what it might be in a fantasy campaign. Historically, we have a range of .26 average anual growth rate to 2+% anual average growth rate. One might suspect that the growth rate for a fantasy game world based on a TL3 society might range somewhere between those two numbers. When I ran the numbers using an optimal 2% growth rate, people didn't care for my observations. No biggie. Defending the assertion that it doesn't make sense when I've yet to see ONE person run numbers and give me an answer different than the one I found makes me a bit less inclined towards relaxing my "aggressive defense". Rather than look at the end results of ANY assumption and determining if the numbers make sense at all seems to be something no one has tried to do. In math, there is a thing called inductive logic. Make an assumption, build a theory on that assumption. If you can prove it wrong, the original assumption is flawed. I'm not saying that we should use a low growth rate or even a high growth rate. I'm saying however, that whether you use a low OR high growth rate - the final numbers look BAD.

But, that's neither here nor there. I've pointed out a flaw - it has been determined to be nothing more than a bagatelle to most "customers" here on Forums. Unfortunately for me, it is not a mere bagatelle, but a telling point that requires me to hit the "I believe button" in order to suspend the disbelief. That is analogous to a cop watching a cop show and being told "Shhh, who cares what real police procedures are - drama trumps realism"

So, on that note. Your comment plus Phil's tells me that the wagons are circling and that I am being too aggressive in my commentaries. I am reading that as essentially "Shut up". That may not have been your intent (and I'm not assuming specifically that it was), but it has the net effect of reminding me that I should call this discussion quits - regardless of your intent.
hal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2006, 01:30 AM   #116
Qoltar
Pike's Pique
 
Qoltar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio U.S.A.
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Someone mentioned Squanto??

Do they have popcorn on Yrth??

Imagine they might. They got the basics to make it .
Its not exactly a high-tech food product.

- Ed Charlton
__________________
Take me out to the black
Tell them I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me....


A vote for charity: http://s3.silent-tower.org/TheKlingonVotes/index.html
Qoltar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2006, 02:27 AM   #117
Christopher R. Rice
 
Christopher R. Rice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorRomulus
Native americans are another species???!

Yes we are.....and right now we are endangered....wheres the treehuggers when you need 'em?


Ghostdancer
__________________
My Twitter
My w23 Stuff
My Blog

Latest GURPS Book: Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Thieves
Latest TFT Book: The Sunken Library

Become a Patron!
Christopher R. Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2006, 03:53 AM   #118
rosignol
 
rosignol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjc8
With infectious diseases, though? I know there are lots of non-infectious diseases that are, but I am not aware of any traditional, infectious diseases that affect some 'races' more than others.

Edit: I know of some populations which failed to develop a resistance to certain diseases because they were isolated from them, but that's not really a genetic issue, and after living on the same continent for hundreds of years, I don't think that would be a big influence on Yrth.

That kind of gets into the whole 'what is a race' question. In GURPS terms, every human on earth has the same racial package, regardless of ethnicity... but when the Conquistadores brought smallpox to the new world, the fatality rate among the non-resistant natives was extremely high.

It is quite concievable that a fantasy setting could have diseases with similar effects on genuinely different races, creating such things is left to the GM's discretion.

Generally speaking, disease is Not Much Fun At All, tho, and is generally used as a plot device affecting NPCs, not player characters.
rosignol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2006, 06:46 AM   #119
Turhan's Bey Company
Aluminated
 
Turhan's Bey Company's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: East of the moon, west of the stars, close to buses and shopping
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qoltar
Do they have popcorn on Yrth??

Imagine they might. They got the basics to make it .
Its not exactly a high-tech food product.
Popcorn doesn't require much in the way of technology, certainly, but it does require...well, corn. Which is a New World crop, not present in those areas of Earth most drawn from by the banestorm until after activity had died down considerably. It's certainly possible that a New World village got dropped into Ytarria at some point, or somebody with a bit of seed corn got brought in many years after contact with the New World, and it proliferated thereafter, but I don't believe it's directly in evidence.
__________________
I've been making pointlessly shiny things, and I've got some gaming-related stuff as well as 3d printing designs.

Buy my Warehouse 23 stuff, dammit!
Turhan's Bey Company is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2006, 09:37 AM   #120
Luther
Grim Reaper
 
Luther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Italy
Default Re: Fixing Demographics for GURPS BANESTORM

Hal, I just want to say I got a lot from your discussions. Thanks.
__________________
bye!
-- Lut

God of the Cult of Stat Normalization
Luther is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
banestorm, world development

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.