What would be the skills to obtain sovereignty?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Michele

For that matter, governments-in-exile have been a big thing in the last century. You had a de facto government that ruled the population and the territory, with guns on the ground - but which was not recognised by a vast majority of the other sovereign states. OTOH you also had a government that was recognised as the de iure government, but which actually did not rule over the population and territory.

That was mostly used by hostile beligerents as a way of embarrassing their enemy and recruiting manpower. Britain recognized Free Poland (which did have an underground state), but it had every intention of destroying the Third Reich anyway.

A corporation declaring itself independent in an area in which we have no interest staked is a different matter. Cecil Rhodes was certainly a not-gentlemanly-language, but the natives were not strong enough to resist, Britain was not willing, and no one else had any reason to care.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

A corporation declaring itself independent in an area in which we have no interest staked is a different matter. Cecil Rhodes was certainly a not-gentlemanly-language, but the natives were not strong enough to resist, Britain was not willing, and no one else had any reason to care.

I think you've exposed another reason why the original plan is flawed. To the extent that achieving sovereignty is feasible because no one cares, it just locks you into the existing framework for dealing with foreign sovereign entities.

A corporation could take over parts of a small African or central Asian country and set itself up as a small nation. It could even transfer its headquarters, operating offices, and factories to that nation, and possibly even get itself recognized by many of the world's governments. NATO, SEATO, Russia, and China are probably not going to get involved as long as the corporate nation didn't tread on any of the wrong toes.

And even if it did all that, so what? China is a communist country with actual state owned enterprises that have corporate presence in the United States. The Chinese ambassador could theoretically bring illicit goods into the US via diplomatic pouch and pass them to the offices of a Chinese corporation in the US, and even though the ambassador and his staff have diplomatic immunity and couldn't be arrested for having the stuff, the US offices of that Chinese corporation would still be subject to arrest if they took possession or tried to sell those illicit items. The Chinese corporation's corporate presence in the US may be owned by the sovereign Chinese national government, but it's still a US corporation chartered under the laws of a US state and completely subject to the jurisdiction of US law.

So even if MegaEvil, Inc. improbably manages to take over the Antarctic, become a sovereign nation, and sets up its semi-secret research base there, they still won't be able to sell pharmaceuticals in the United States without going through FDA approval the normal way. Because while MegaEvil, Inc. of Antarctica is a sovereign nation, MegaEvil, Inc. of Delaware in the USA is still a US corporate entity and can't sell pharmaceuticals without FDA approval.

Now I believe at this point that Alonsua is working around these problems by having MegaEvil take control of the US government with such clear and convincing majorities that haven't been seen since FDR. In which case I don't understand why it would bother moving to Antarctica instead of changing all the laws in the US to suit its whims. Of course, having control of the US government and US laws is still not going to let it sell pharmaceuticals in the EU without going through the EU regulatory process, because MegaEvil, Inc of Delaware is legally distinct from MegaEvil GmbH of Germany and MegaEvil GmbH needs EU regulatory approval.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I think you've exposed another reason why the original plan is flawed. To the extent that achieving sovereignty is feasible because no one cares, it just locks you into the existing framework for dealing with foreign sovereign entities.

A corporation could take over parts of a small African or central Asian country and set itself up as a small nation. It could even transfer its headquarters, operating offices, and factories to that nation, and possibly even get itself recognized by many of the world's governments. NATO, SEATO, Russia, and China are probably not going to get involved as long as the corporate nation didn't tread on any of the wrong toes.

And even if it did all that, so what? China is a communist country with actual state owned enterprises that have corporate presence in the United States. The Chinese ambassador could theoretically bring illicit goods into the US via diplomatic pouch and pass them to the offices of a Chinese corporation in the US, and even though the ambassador and his staff have diplomatic immunity and couldn't be arrested for having the stuff, the US offices of that Chinese corporation would still be subject to arrest if they took possession or tried to sell those illicit items. The Chinese corporation's corporate presence in the US may be owned by the sovereign Chinese national government, but it's still a US corporation chartered under the laws of a US state and completely subject to the jurisdiction of US law.

So even if MegaEvil, Inc. improbably manages to take over the Antarctic, become a sovereign nation, and sets up its semi-secret research base there, they still won't be able to sell pharmaceuticals in the United States without going through FDA approval the normal way. Because while MegaEvil, Inc. of Antarctica is a sovereign nation, MegaEvil, Inc. of Delaware in the USA is still a US corporate entity and can't sell pharmaceuticals without FDA approval.

Now I believe at this point that Alonsua is working around these problems by having MegaEvil take control of the US government with such clear and convincing majorities that haven't been seen since FDR. In which case I don't understand why it would bother moving to Antarctica instead of changing all the laws in the US to suit its whims. Of course, having control of the US government and US laws is still not going to let it sell pharmaceuticals in the EU without going through the EU regulatory process, because MegaEvil, Inc of Delaware is legally distinct from MegaEvil GmbH of Germany and MegaEvil GmbH needs EU regulatory approval.

You're quite right. At this stage I don't see a corporation taking over US directly in the manner of the Medicis as being in the cards. Sponsoring politicians is an old game of course.

[Donny Brook]

Come to think of it, I don't know why they want to go to all the trouble of selling TL11 anything when you can own the market selling TL8.1 into a TL8 society.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Come to think of it, I don't know why they want to go to all the trouble of selling TL11 anything when you can own the market selling TL8.1 into a TL8 society.

It seems to me that the motivation is not economic but religious. Only this messiah's powers don't come from a divine source but from Advanced Science, and they definitely aren't turning down "all the kingdoms of the world."

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Of course, having control of the US government and US laws is still not going to let it sell pharmaceuticals in the EU without going through the EU regulatory process...

How about making the key word extraterritoriality?

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

... and they definitely aren't turning down "all the kingdoms of the world."

"Whoever does not welcome the kingdom of God like a little child will certainly not enter it" (Mark 10:13-16)

Now seriously, they will not sell technology much beyond the current level, what they will do is exploit it to their own advantage. Why sell artificial intelligences when you can use them yourself to overtake the entire competition? But that does not stop you from selling a couple of companion robots in a "Detroit: Become Human" style. And if governments bother you, sneak a virus through a casual backdoor and say "ups, it seems like the system had a vulnerability".

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

How about making the key word extraterritoriality?

Broad extraterritoriality for an entire organization as opposed to revocable extraterritoriality limited to official representatives is a status that effectively implies unconditional surrender on the part of the 'granting' state.

So, outright conquest or total suborning of the government seems like about what you'd need.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Broad extraterritoriality for an entire organization as opposed to revocable extraterritoriality limited to official representatives is a status that effectively implies unconditional surrender on the part of the 'granting' state.

So, outright conquest or total suborning of the government seems like about what you'd need.

As far as I know the Holy See has several extraterritorial properties.

[PTTG]

If you're going for a cyberpunk dystopian feel, focus on what we're really looking for here: the usurpation of meaningful power from individuals and democratic institutions to corporate (i.e., absolutist/oligarchic) ones.

You don't need to have international recognition as a sovereign nation to dictate how people live their lives. From the perspective of an average citizen, you might live in a democracy and vote for the mayor, police chief, and dogcatcher, but your boss, your HR manager, and the guy who maintains the corporate dormitory where you live are all appointed by the same unaccountable bureaucracy.

Yes, it's legal to spend US$ on anything you like, but you're only paid a few cents in real money; the rest is corporate scrip good for only what you have clearance for. The government might have no rules about who you can marry, but your HR track has severe penalties if you have dependents, so that's not really an option, after all, you can barely afford your apartment as it is. It's unconstitutional for the government to spy on you, but your government-provided entertainment station is voice-activated, and if you don't have your (GPS-connected) phone on you at all times, you might miss an urgent message from your boss.

It's all "soft power," of a sort. Nothing is illegal, and that means it's totally legal for The Corporation to watch you starve in the street if you so much as sneeze (and actually, loitering and transience are banned within this district, so move along, citizen). Corporate morale officers will be the first to tell you... there's more freedom now than ever before!

The path to that sort of thing is thousands of little laws and court cases establishing precedent. Hundreds of quiet settlements out of court. Billions of dollars spent on advertising and propaganda. A few civil rights rollbacks in order to "grow the economy." Lots and lots of mergers.

All of those rely on social skills first and foremost, mainly Diplomacy and Merchant. But different kinds of leaders and roles in the process will call for basically every social skill in the book, so pick one you like and you can make that character play a major role in shaping a dystopian corporate overlordship.