Outdoorsman seems overcosted

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

...A blanket statement of value isn't warranted; it's only applicable to your campaign.

This.

I have, in my own games, changed the cost of several advantages because they are either irrelevant or something that is very helpful OR something that everyone should have.

Irrelevant advantages and skills tend to get the cost cut by a lot. You want your character to have the fishing skill? even though that may never pop up in the game? Ok, sure, take it as a perk and if there is ever a moment where your character can fish, just describe what happens, no need to roll.

Combat heavy game, ambidexterity gets a bump up in cost since it is very helpful. Same with fit/very fit, etc.

everyone is capable of using imbuement skills? 0 points, its a feature of the setting.

If something costs too much (or too little!) in YOUR game, then ask if it would ever come up? Do you want players to take it?

[Black Leviathan]

If you don't think the advantage is worth it.. don't buy it?

None of the talents are very economical unless you think you'll get use out of the skills. Outdoorsman has a number of pretty useful skills adventure-wise. It's also skills mostly based on IQ, which a lot of Nature type characters often sacrifice for DX. If you're going to put points into three of the skills in a 10 pt talent then you're making CP back plus getting a good reaction mod, another thing nature-type characters can end up short on.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

If you don't think the advantage is worth it.. don't buy it?

None of the talents are very economical unless you think you'll get use out of the skills. Outdoorsman has a number of pretty useful skills adventure-wise. It's also skills mostly based on IQ, which a lot of Nature type characters often sacrifice for DX. If you're going to put points into three of the skills in a 10 pt talent then you're making CP back plus getting a good reaction mod, another thing nature-type characters can end up short on.

Pretty much this.

—

The game isn't about optimization but characterization. Barbarians and scouts are meant to be outdoorsmen because those are archetypes found in tons of fantasy. If you want to make other archetypes (like a consummate archer who isn't a ranger, or a hulking brute warrior who isn't a tribesman), just do it . . . it isn't hard. That said, most of those roles are doable with the knight template and suitable use of discretionary points and options; a by-the-book knight can have ST 18, Weapon Bond (Bow), Weapon Master (Bow), and effective Bow-18, for instance.

Also, once you move beyond "use the game in the box" to "mess with all the dials and switches in GURPS, including writing your own templates and trying to optimize characters," you might as well use it all. GURPS Power-Ups 3: Talents is full of alternative benefits that might better satisfy the needs of your gaming table: +1/level to all Influence rolls with plants, animals, and nature beings; +1/level to all default rolls to use any skill in outdoor survival situations; +1/level to all Per rolls made outdoors; remove -1/level for lack of outdoor survival gear; the equivalent of Danger Sense that only works in wilderness areas, rolled at Per-4, +1/level; etc. You could even let each buyer of Outdoorsman pick one benefit from the list.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Harald387

Or unless your character (and your group) have need of that focus of 'outdoor skills' without adding the extra brains for skills that character largely lacks anyway. Yes, you can get more bang for your buck by increasing IQ - but "pure IQ" is something that rarely sees rolls. So then you also need to invest in skills that use that IQ: for the Barbarian, that mostly means adding off-template Social Skills (a poor choice due to the obligatory Social Stigma) or Knowledge Skills (where ANY Barbarian will be behind most novice Mages or Clerics).

A Scout gets a +2 boost from Outdoorsman 2 to the following five mandatory skills: Camouflage, Navigation, Mimicry (Bird-calls), Survival, Tracking. The optional skill Weather Sense also benefits.

If a Scout were allowed to swap Outdoorsman for IQ +1, they'd get a +1 boost instead to the following mandatory ten skills: Camouflage, Cartography, Gesture, Mimicry (Bird Calls), Navigation, Observation, Shadowing, Survival, Tracking, Traps. Also any of these optional skills: Armory, First Aid, Prospecting, Seamanship, Search, Weather Sense.

At least for Scouts, it doesn't take off-template investment to make IQ pay off. Nevertheless, I think it's fine for Scouts to be tied to the Outdoorsman idiom: it's fine to have inefficient investments. My only complaint is that so many of the Outdoorsman skills are inexplicably off-template for Scouts: Disguise (Animals), Fishing, Mimicry (Animal Sounds), and Naturalist are 100% idiomatic for scouts in my opinion. Of course it's easy to add them as optional skills to the template, which also gives Scouts more of a reason not to just invest all 8 optional points in Bow instead.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by tbone

A good point. Though the game largely leaves it up to the GM to make that happen, as it suggests few non-IQ/Per rolls for the skills covered by Outdoorsman.

Boosting Outdoorsman to a full 10 skills with the addition of Hiking helps a bit here, as that's almost always HT-based. (As would slipping in a couple more non-brainy skills like Boating and Swimming; I believe the BS rule for talents allows up to 12 skills for a 10-point talent.)

Also worth keeping in mind: A few (?) magic items published so far specifically call on Outdoorsman for their full effect.

All in all, though, it's true that Outdoorsman is a hard sell compared to IQ. If the DFRPG line ever publishes a work on wilderness adventures, it'd be a good place to introduce more non-IQ/Per rolls for skills covered by Outdoorsman, or other benefits of the advantage.

10 point Talents can be a little underpowered if they're typically subbing for just one Attribute so adding HT & DX skills makes it a better deal. I'd go with adding Hiking, Swimming & Stealth if boosting Outdoorsman up to the maximum 12 skills. 10 point Talents can be a little underpowered if they're typically subbing for just one Attribute so adding HT & DX skills makes it a better deal.

If that's not enough, make the bonus apply not just to HT but all Attribute rolls in the wilderness - DX to avoid tripping over undergrowth, Per to hear an animal in the distance, etc. That should make it a good deal.