[Social Engineering] Feudal Rank and Privilege Advantages

[Olinto]

Does a high ranking noble needs to buy privilege advantages such as legal enforcement powers, legal Immunity and Claim to Hospitality or it is all covered by the Feudal Rank?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Olinto

Does a high ranking noble needs to buy privilege advantagens such as legal enforcement powers, legal Immunity and Claim to Hospitality or its all covered by the Feudal Rank?

Rank provides power over other people in your hierarchy. Any privileges not covered by the ability to command people in your hierarchical structure will need to be purchased separately.

Legal Enforcement Powers probably applies to actual land-holding lords, those who have the right to administer justice not just on their own peasants, but also on people passing through (and in some feudal systems, "justice" was a separate right from landholding specifically - a lord could have the "right of justice" over, for instance, a stretch of road or a town that he otherwise had no other specific rights to).

Legal Immunity is pretty common as well - a lord who went into a free city (that is, one that held its charter under the overall ruler directly, rather than one lower in the feudal hierarchy), for instance, and committed a crime there, would almost certainly be impossible to charge with the city's standard courts - they'd have to appeal to the monarch.

Claim to Hospitality, on the other hand, is probably not necessary, at least if you're staying with other nobles. The exception here would be if you're travelling internationally a lot, and thus technically staying with nobles who aren't in your Feudal Rank structure. Then Claim to Hospitality is probably justified.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Rank provides power over other people in your hierarchy. Any privileges not covered by the ability to command people in your hierarchical structure will need to be purchased separately.

Not quite. Feudal rank also includes status. In social engineering, it lists a number of benefits for status. One of them is that "A high status individual may approach others as if they were members of a Contact Group". It then goes on to specifically call out having the courts or police overlook a minor offense as a possibility.



I think the emphasis here is "Minor". Good luck getting justice for him riding his horse through your field or striking you in anger. But if he kills, there will be an inquiry.



I'm not 100% sure what this means for the question asked, because depending on the period, he may have the soft favor of the law, or he might be above it.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Not quite. Feudal rank also includes status. In social engineering, it lists a number of benefits for status. One of them is that "A high status individual may approach others as if they were members of a Contact Group". It then goes on to specifically call out having the courts or police overlook a minor offense as a possibility.

Ah, no. Feudal Rank and Status are two different things. If your title as a noble means that you actually have a position in a feudal political system that entitles you to give orders, then you take both: Feudal Rank represents the formal legal powers and Status represents the general deference. The rest of what you say is accurate.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Not quite. Feudal rank also includes status. In social engineering, it lists a number of benefits for status. One of them is that "A high status individual may approach others as if they were members of a Contact Group". It then goes on to specifically call out having the courts or police overlook a minor offense as a possibility.



I think the emphasis here is "Minor". Good luck getting justice for him riding his horse through your field or striking you in anger. But if he kills, there will be an inquiry.



I'm not 100% sure what this means for the question asked, because depending on the period, he may have the soft favor of the law, or he might be above it.

It probably depends on the situation at the time, the political status of the local law enforcers, etc. Free Cities were mentioned. But what about Hansa or Cinque Ports? The former were capable of fighting on their own behalf and the later were to important to the King to tolerate a mere unruly noble offending them. In fact cities provided kings with money, ships, and even to some degree troops and were their main way of keeping the nobility in check.

It really depends on a lot of factors. A Percy might have Legal Immunity even in London. Does that really mean Joe Schmo Baron of the Three Pigsties will?

[Olinto]

My goal is to create realistic social templates for historical 1220 Europe.

[Celjabba]

The simple answer, sadly useless to the OP, is that whatever you decide, you can likely find historical example both for and against somewhere and sometime in medieval Europe. there are simply too much local variation.

As a GM, this is how I would handle it gamewise :

First case : Social advantage are not the focus of the game, just background rarely relevant: just buy feodal rank for simplicity.

Second case : Social advantage will be relevant in game :
A) Is it possible for a character to have feodal rank and not have legal enforcement powers, legal Immunity and Claim to Hospitality (each with an accessibility : only against lower rank) ?
B) Is it possible for a character to have legal enforcement powers, legal Immunity or Claim to Hospitality and not have feodal rank ?

If both answer are "no", just include them into rank.

If A is possible, they should be separate purchase, and the cost of feodal rank should likely be adjusted down.

If B is possible but not A, for simplicity, just include them into rank. You may need to increase the cost of rank to match having the 3 highest level advantages at rank 8 or whatever is max rank in your game.

Hope this help...

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The simple answer, sadly useless to the OP, is that whatever you decide, you can likely find historical example both for and against somewhere and sometime in medieval Europe. there are simply too much local variation.

As a GM, this is how I would handle it gamewise :

First case : Social advantage are not the focus of the game, just background rarely relevant: just buy feodal rank for simplicity.

Second case : Social advantage will be relevant in game :
A) Is it possible for a character to have feodal rank and not have legal enforcement powers, legal Immunity and Claim to Hospitality (each with an accessibility : only against lower rank) ?
B) Is it possible for a character to have legal enforcement powers, legal Immunity or Claim to Hospitality and not have feodal rank ?

If both answer are "no", just include them into rank.

If A is possible, they should be separate purchase, and the cost of feodal rank should likely be adjusted down.

If B is possible but not A, for simplicity, just include them into rank. You may need to increase the cost of rank to match having the 3 highest level advantages at rank 8 or whatever is max rank in your game.

Hope this help...

B must be possible whether or not A is. Guilds always have CtH as do minority religions like Jews, Sufis, whatever, as do tribes. Indeed it is a pretty poor fellow who does not have CtH with someone and taken to an extreme that means he is a potential thrall if not a wolf's head and the most likely reason for it is that anyone they have CtH with is to far away to be helpful or has been alienated.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

B must be possible whether or not A is. Guilds always have CtH as do minority religions like Jews, Sufis, whatever, as do tribes. Indeed it is a pretty poor fellow who does not have CtH with someone and taken to an extreme that means he is a potential thrall if not a wolf's head and the most likely reason for it is that anyone they have CtH with is to far away to be helpful or has been alienated.

Definitively True, but if the PC cannot be commoners,/ guild menbets/one of those minorities but must be noble, it may be irrelevant to character building.