Projectile Tongue: Which build to use?

[Cowrie]

I'm working on a race with a Racial Gifts perk, and one of those optional abilities is a projectile tongue like a frog or chameleon. However, there are several different possible builds for this I've considered and I can't decide which one is most accurate.

1. The Binding Build:
Binding 10 (Melee Attack, Reach C, 1-2, Cannot Parry, -20%; One-Shot, -10%; Retractable, +80%) [15]
I eyeballed the cost of Reach C, 1-2 for a melee attack as being the same as Reach 1-4, and the Retractable enhancement is from RPK's MyGURPS. Concerns include whether the One-Shot limitation inherently excludes the ability to use binding on multiple targets at once or I need to add another limitation and whether there's a way to voluntarily release a target from the binding. (I used the +80% version of retractable because I want the connection to be required so long as the target is bound, and as I understand it, releasing the line in the +100% version still leaves the target bound.)

2. The Entangling Build:
Striker (Crushing; Disarming, +20%; Cannot Parry, -40%; Flexible, +30%; Limited Arc, Straight Ahead, -40%; Long 2, +200%; Switchable, +10%; Weak, -50%) [12]
Disarming and Flexible come from Pyramid 3/65. The cheapest of the builds, but I’m concerned that entangling doesn’t accurately capture the abilities of this sort of tongue, especially taking into account the elaboration on entangling weapons in Technical Grappling. Is the fact that it sticks to the target instead of wrapping around them cosmetic, or is the difference a problem? Another issue is that presumably the roll to "entangle" would be at -4 default just like with a whip, and that should be the default method of attack.

3. The Extra Arm Build:
Extra Arm 1 (Extra-Flexible, +50%; Only for grappling and shoving, -60%; Switchable, +10%) [10] + Stretching 2 (Tongue Only, -40%) [8]
The modifier “only for grappling and shoving” is something I got off of a different thread on the forums. It’s cost was based on the cost of No Physical Attack, but since it prohibits both manipulating and striking, it was valued a bit higher. I might also add the Reduced Time enhancement to Stretching to represent the ability to instantly extend the tongue.

Which one is the best?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Cowrie

1. The Binding Build:
Binding 10 (Melee Attack, Reach C, 1-2, Cannot Parry, -20%; One-Shot, -10%; Retractable, +80%) [15]
I eyeballed the cost of Reach C, 1-2 for a melee attack as being the same as Reach 1-4, and the Retractable enhancement is from RPK's MyGURPS. Concerns include whether the One-Shot limitation inherently excludes the ability to use binding on multiple targets at once or I need to add another limitation and whether there's a way to voluntarily release a target from the binding.

I would say One-Shot definitely does not include the limitation of only being usable on one target at a time - One-Shot is all about only being to hit a given target once with the Binding, rather than making it stronger by layering it. So you could claim another limitation on this one for "one target at a time". I'd price that at about -30%, personally. I would say that whether you can release a Binding early on a target is basically a 0%-switch, chosen when you take the ability, so in this case you can just say that you can choose to release the Binding without further modifiers.

Originally Posted by Cowrie

2. The Entangling Build:
Striker (Crushing; Disarming, +20%; Cannot Parry, -40%; Flexible, +30%; Limited Arc, Straight Ahead, -40%; Long 2, +200%; Switchable, +10%; Weak, -50%) [12]
Disarming and Flexible come from Pyramid 3/65. The cheapest of the builds, but I’m concerned that entangling doesn’t accurately capture the abilities of this sort of tongue, especially taking into account the elaboration on entangling weapons in Technical Grappling.

I don't have Technical Grappling, so I can't comment on that, but otherwise, I think this really depends on how immobilizing you see the tongue being. By the rules in Basic, at least, this build only immobilizes either the body part it wraps around, or the whole character if it gets the torso, but doesn't actually impose the penalties for being grappled that Binding would - the target would have no DX penalty to use a knife to cut the tongue, for instance, unless the knife was in the entangled hand.

Originally Posted by Cowrie

3. The Extra Arm Build:
Extra Arm 1 (Extra-Flexible, +50%; Only for grappling and shoving, -60%; Switchable, +10%) [10] + Stretching 2 (Tongue Only, -40%) [8]
The modifier “only for grappling and shoving” is something I got off of a different thread on the forums. It’s cost was based on the cost of No Physical Attack, but since it prohibits both manipulating and striking, it was valued a bit higher.

I don't buy the "Only grappling and shoving" at -60%. That's not No Physical Attack - grappling and shoving are very much physical attacks. I'd price "only grappling and shoving" at closer to -15%. The price comparison I'd use is Temporary Disadvantage: No Fine Manipulators, which would be -30%, but halved to represent the fact that it only applies to this limb specifically, rather than the character as a whole.


Personally, of the three, I think the middle one, the entangling natural attack, is the best. I picture a frog's tongue as working more like a whip or lariat when it grabs something. A binding would be more of a whole-body thing, I would think, and the Extra Arm build is suspect, to my mind, because of all the limitations you have to apply to get it acting less arm-like, basically. If you're worried about the inherent -4 for the Entangling technique, I'd just give them a racial bonus to the technique. It's only 5 more points to completely buy the penalty off.

[Refplace]

Been looking but I cant find it. Somewhere though I saw a writeup of what your looking for.
Checked several PDFs and this site http://gurps.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_published_creatures

Best I can recall the typical build is Extra Arms with Extra Flexible and Long.
I am with Kelly on your limitation "Only for grappling and shoving, -60%;" as being far too generous.
Add in Constriction Attack and you should be good.
Note that you need Reduced Time on your stretching if you want to be able to quickly snap out to full length.

[Cowrie]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I don't buy the "Only grappling and shoving" at -60%. That's not No Physical Attack - grappling and shoving are very much physical attacks. I'd price "only grappling and shoving" at closer to -15%. The price comparison I'd use is Temporary Disadvantage: No Fine Manipulators, which would be -30%, but halved to represent the fact that it only applies to this limb specifically, rather than the character as a whole.

While I'll allow that -60% may be too high, I'd also say that -15% is too low. If using NFM as the basis for the limitation, that doesn't take into account the inability to strike for damage. Perhaps splitting the difference at -25% or -30% would be fair. In any case, I'm also leaning towards the entangling build now.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Personally, of the three, I think the middle one, the entangling natural attack, is the best. I picture a frog's tongue as working more like a whip or lariat when it grabs something. A binding would be more of a whole-body thing, I would think, and the Extra Arm build is suspect, to my mind, because of all the limitations you have to apply to get it acting less arm-like, basically. If you're worried about the inherent -4 for the Entangling technique, I'd just give them a racial bonus to the technique. It's only 5 more points to completely buy the penalty off.

By racial bonus to the technique, do you just mean buying it off as usual, or is there a way of getting a bonus to a specific technique as an advantage that I'm not aware of? If the former, that would work if the tongue were present in all members of this race, but since it's an optional advantage granted by Racial Gifts, I'm not really sure if it's okay to include a technique in something typically limited to advantages. On the other hand, I could absolutely see it as being more difficult for them to strike for damage with their tongue than it is for them to "entangle" something. Would it be fair to allow them to be able to entangle and disarm at full skill but have a -4 penalty to hit in damaging strikes that can be bought off with a technique as a feature of the ability?

Originally Posted by Refplace

Add in Constriction Attack and you should be good.

Why would something meant simply to grab a target and pull it in require Constriction Attack? One of my concerns was even the fact that as I see it, the tongue does not wrap around it's target, but simply sticks to them. Though, the race as a whole does have a Swallow Whole advantage based loosely on Constriction Attack that I got off the forums.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Cowrie

... the race as a whole does have a Swallow Whole advantage based loosely on Constriction Attack that I got off the forums.

Probably my fault. :)

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Cowrie

If using NFM as the basis for the limitation, that doesn't take into account the inability to strike for damage. Perhaps splitting the difference at -25% or -30% would be fair.

Good point on the "no striking". Yeah, I'd boost it up to -25% for that.

Originally Posted by Cowrie

By racial bonus to the technique, do you just mean buying it off as usual, or is there a way of getting a bonus to a specific technique as an advantage that I'm not aware of? If the former, that would work if the tongue were present in all members of this race, but since it's an optional advantage granted by Racial Gifts, I'm not really sure if it's okay to include a technique in something typically limited to advantages.

It's the former, but just expressed as "racial" points in the technique rather than "individual". Remember, racial templates can have skills included (not just racial skill bonuses), representing a significant "instinctive" grasp of the skill in question. I don't see why points in a technique wouldn't be exactly the same. So the ability that could be bought with Racial Gifts would look something like this:

Striker (Crushing; Disarming, +20%; Cannot Parry, -40%; Flexible, +30%; Limited Arc, Straight Ahead, -40%; Long 2, +200%; Switchable, +10%; Weak, -50%) [12] + Racial Technique: Entangle (Whip+0) [5].

Originally Posted by Cowrie

On the other hand, I could absolutely see it as being more difficult for them to strike for damage with their tongue than it is for them to "entangle" something. Would it be fair to allow them to be able to entangle and disarm at full skill but have a -4 penalty to hit in damaging strikes that can be bought off with a technique as a feature of the ability?

Yeah, I can see that being balanced too. Just make sure to note that by making entangling the "primary use" of the weapon, that it can't be bought up as a technique any more. You'll probably want to note how the Entangling Tongue skill defaults to things like Whip as well.

[Cowrie]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yeah, I can see that being balanced too. Just make sure to note that by making entangling the "primary use" of the weapon, that it can't be bought up as a technique any more. You'll probably want to note how the Entangling Tongue skill defaults to things like Whip as well.

Well, it's a Striker. As a general rule, those use the Brawling skill. I'm pretty sure the box in Pyramid 3/65 about applying Natural Weapon modifiers to Strikers doesn't suggest changing that. While I can certainly see how this particular striker would probably require different "training" than typical uses of Brawling, I'm not sure it's fair to require them to buy a whole other skill in order to improve this one attack.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Probably my fault. :)

Actually, it's Adelus's leveled homebrew Swallow Whole, seen here, with a couple minor tweaks of my own to define maximum capacity. I like the flexibility it provides better than a flat-out Engulfing Constriction Attack.