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Old 12-04-2012, 03:05 PM   #41
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
If you replace the toy bow with a real one, let him draw the arrow more than a couple of inches back and consequencely slow him down considerably...

...You have a normal use of the Fast-Draw and Quick-Shooting Bows rules from GURPS MA.
Yep. And the techniques in that video are covered with Combat Art so the archery rules in GURPS do cover this.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:26 AM   #42
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Drat. It is canonical that arrows stuck in the ground in front of you give a bonus, and Toadkiller Dog wrote the book! I have seen sources for military archers doing holding the bow and several arrows in their left hand ... I am not sure about his trick with arrows in the left hand.

Lars Andersen is very good at what he does, and I suspect that he can do some impressive and practical things when he is not showing off for the camera. I have never tried this kind of archery.
I meant to infer that I'd asked a few weeks before I saw this.

I'm gonna try again with this video though. ;D
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:48 PM   #43
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Except arrows aren't like bullets. With a bullet, every trigger pull gives me the same amount of power, so I can discard accuracy for putting lots of slugs into a target, and people do. But with a bow, you're also sacrificing strength.
This is a valid point, and if you're facing an experienced opponent then shooting a lot of low-power arrows is probably a bad idea.

But . . . you can see arrows coming at you. That's going to make many people flinch, stop to block or otherwise slow them down.

While GURPS doesn't model it that well, it takes a very determined attacker to charge to contact against enemies who can produce a "hail of fire." Unless they know that their survival depends on getting into melee range they're going to go to ground or fall back.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:23 AM   #44
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
While GURPS doesn't model it that well, it takes a very determined attacker to charge to contact against enemies who can produce a "hail of fire." Unless they know that their survival depends on getting into melee range they're going to go to ground or fall back.
I wonder about that. I'm totally willing to walk into a series of fast punches, because I know they don't hurt so much. But intermittent hard ones back me off.

If you don't know the arrows won't hurt much, you might hesitate. But it would only take a bounce or two before you decide you can just ignore them. IMO anyway.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:28 AM   #45
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
If you don't know the arrows won't hurt much, you might hesitate. But it would only take a bounce or two before you decide you can just ignore them. IMO anyway.
The problem is that even a very low-powered arrow could theoretically kill you, if you're unlucky enough.

The danger of punches at least correlates somewhat predictably with their power, but for sharp penetrators, it's much harder to know beforehand how dangerous they are. A dagger slash or arrow that will not even leave a bruise after being stopped by your leather coat might be lethal within 30 seconds if it hit just a couple of inches higher, severing an artery in the neck.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:45 AM   #46
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
This is a valid point, and if you're facing an experienced opponent then shooting a lot of low-power arrows is probably a bad idea.

But . . . you can see arrows coming at you. That's going to make many people flinch, stop to block or otherwise slow them down.

While GURPS doesn't model it that well, it takes a very determined attacker to charge to contact against enemies who can produce a "hail of fire." Unless they know that their survival depends on getting into melee range they're going to go to ground or fall back.
Except that low-tech heavy infantry and cavalry routinely walked into a hail of fire. That was their job in a big battle. We know from the Rule of the Knights Templar that templars expected anyone with a hauberk to be braver than someone without, presumably because it is so hard to kill someone in a hauberk with muscle-powered weapons. A friend who was trained as a Canadian Navy firefighter has described how they learn to walk into fire in their protective suits and accept that if they stay calm and their team-mate do the job there is little danger. All in all, I think that good soldiers would have trusted their kit and not been dissuaded by a hail of slow, light arrows.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:06 AM   #47
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The problem is that even a very low-powered arrow could theoretically kill you, if you're unlucky enough.

The danger of punches at least correlates somewhat predictably with their power, but for sharp penetrators, it's much harder to know beforehand how dangerous they are. A dagger slash or arrow that will not even leave a bruise after being stopped by your leather coat might be lethal within 30 seconds if it hit just a couple of inches higher, severing an artery in the neck.
I suppose. But if I had armor? I'm not saying "punching and arrows are the same." I'm saying, "multiple attacks do not automatically discourage forward advancing into melee."

We know people walk into gunfire - why does a few arrows coming from one guy seem like it's going to discourage anyone?
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:18 AM   #48
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
I suppose. But if I had armor? I'm not saying "punching and arrows are the same." I'm saying, "multiple attacks do not automatically discourage forward advancing into melee."

We know people walk into gunfire - why does a few arrows coming from one guy seem like it's going to discourage anyone?
Attacks, whether effective or not, don't automatically discourage people. But given how much of the gunfire on modern battlefields is discharged almost solely to discomfit and discourage the opposition, it seems that exposing foes to a low, but non-zero risk of death or injury is considered an effective way to reduce their freedom to threaten you back, and incidentally, also of taking coordinated, effective action to accomplish their tactical goals.

We know that area saturation with arrows, primarily reliant on volume, was a tactic used historically. While the individual rate of fire was much lower than the video of the OP and Lars' method of rapid shooting is probably far too technically demanding to ever be a viable possibility for significant numbers of troops, as well as being too short ranged for battlefield applications, I would not rule out a limited utility in causing foes to hesitate for a short time in a skirmish.

Personally, I think that utility would be less than using the same level of technical proficiency with a bow to engage more decisively, but I can't say for sure that this would hold true in all conceivable combinations of situation and forces.

Note that using the RAW rules for fright checks on the battlefield from Tactical Shooting, there would be some benefit to shooting so ridiculously fast. Given that hits would probably not incapacitate the target, though, it's likely that this utility would, as I predicted above, be less than simply shooting to kill or cripple.
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Last edited by Icelander; 12-07-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:56 AM   #49
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Default Re: Bow - 3 shots in less than 2 turns - In real life.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Note that using the RAW rules for fright checks on the battlefield from Tactical Shooting, there would be some benefit to shooting so ridiculously fast. Given that hits would probably not incapacitate the target, though, it's likely that this utility would, as I predicted above, be less than simply shooting to kill or cripple.
I'm fine with applying existing rules to all attacks (if you're using them); I'm just not seeing how what's in the video is worthy of extra benefits. It feels more like fishing for benefits to give multiple weak shots than reflecting any real benefit.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:14 PM   #50
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Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Does setting your magazines out on the ground next to you assist in Fast Draw ammo also for rifles?
I would say no, for the following reasons:

Bow:
1- Tipping a bow forward can be a natural part of a draw, being able to grab the arrow at that point makes the whole motion more fluid.

2- Arrows are long, which makes removing them from any sort of reasonable quiver a bit of an exercise.

By making the natural motion of working a bowstring part of getting the arrow AND removing the obstacle of having to move about the very long bow you get a bonus.

Firearm using magazines:
1- Already quite small
2- Normally stored in a place very close to the weapon

A magazine in a rapid release holster in a comfortable position in the front of your body is probably about in the most convenient place it can be for reloading purposes.

A better equivalent might be 'would having your shotgun shells on the side of the shotgun ease the fast draw roll for reloading shotgun ammo?', in that case I would say yes. However I believe this is already covered in high-tech (as are rapid release holsters, and taping two magazines together for rifle use).
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